I voted fantasy realism, but I do not consider the example picture to have anything to do with reality. (Unless we're talking about a different kind of dungeon).
Dragon’s-Eye View 3/28/2012... now with ENW poll!
- Thread starter mach1.9pants
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TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
as I posted in the other thread
In terms of context that he talks about...
"In other words, a male knight in full battle dress, wading through the desert sands, is just about as silly as a female fighter, in a chainmail bikini, forging through the frozen wastes of the Iceland Dale."
Ok...but do any mechanics support that? In 4E, and honestly just about all versions, the fighter (and Paladin, and maybe cleric...) is probably going to have the heaviest armor possible, and that is full plate, which is a more walkable version of the first pic in the article (I guess technically the walkable version would be field plate) and when the time comes, he is going to go to really hot places and not really be penalized for it.
Lets take this pic:
Is that appropriate armor, because I bet it sure if hot.
(yes...I know its a special case...the point here is linking art to the actual game and what happens in it).
In terms of context that he talks about...
"In other words, a male knight in full battle dress, wading through the desert sands, is just about as silly as a female fighter, in a chainmail bikini, forging through the frozen wastes of the Iceland Dale."
Ok...but do any mechanics support that? In 4E, and honestly just about all versions, the fighter (and Paladin, and maybe cleric...) is probably going to have the heaviest armor possible, and that is full plate, which is a more walkable version of the first pic in the article (I guess technically the walkable version would be field plate) and when the time comes, he is going to go to really hot places and not really be penalized for it.
Lets take this pic:
Is that appropriate armor, because I bet it sure if hot.
(yes...I know its a special case...the point here is linking art to the actual game and what happens in it).
Why shouldn't the ladies have armor like this?
Seriously thought I am for realistic armor and I disagree with that article which point apparently is "Its fantasy, it doesn't have to be realistic (because we define what realistic is)".
No, it does not have to be realistic but I still like to have plausible armor. No spikes, no open bellies, no boob plate. There are many factors which influenced the design of armor and culture was only one of them (and imo a minor one). So even when you take that away you still will get mostly the same type of armor we had in the real world.
PS: Full plate in the desert? Guess what the crusaders wore?
Seriously thought I am for realistic armor and I disagree with that article which point apparently is "Its fantasy, it doesn't have to be realistic (because we define what realistic is)".
No, it does not have to be realistic but I still like to have plausible armor. No spikes, no open bellies, no boob plate. There are many factors which influenced the design of armor and culture was only one of them (and imo a minor one). So even when you take that away you still will get mostly the same type of armor we had in the real world.
PS: Full plate in the desert? Guess what the crusaders wore?
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RangerWickett
Legend
I imagine the crusaders rode around on horses while wearing light clothing, and when they got near to some place where armor was useful they would get dressed in it.
I wholeheartedly agree with "armor should be appropriate to the environment and the culture." I'm really happy to see more elements of real-world culture being brought into the art. And I love the take on designing armor for male and female warriors that is clearly of similar purpose and origin, without necessarily being identical. The outfits of those two warriors are pefect.
All that makes me feel a little bad about bringing this up, but the poses of those same warriors bug me. They belong on the same battlefield, but the woman doesn't look like she's actually on a battlefield. The man is posed for combat. He's in a fighting crouch with his feet well apart, he's got a firm grip on his weapon, he's brandishing it ready to swing, his shield is up, he's yelling a battle cry. The woman is posed... well, she's posed. She's standing straight, smiling, her feet are tight together, and she's doing that thing where you're on the ball of one foot and the flat of the other. Her mace is loosely held and her shield is down.
It's not a huge deal, and I'm certainly not saying the female warrior is in a cheesecakey "come-hither" pose like we often saw in the Elmore days. Taken just as it is, this picture is miles better than most fantasy art. But it still bugs me, a little.
All that makes me feel a little bad about bringing this up, but the poses of those same warriors bug me. They belong on the same battlefield, but the woman doesn't look like she's actually on a battlefield. The man is posed for combat. He's in a fighting crouch with his feet well apart, he's got a firm grip on his weapon, he's brandishing it ready to swing, his shield is up, he's yelling a battle cry. The woman is posed... well, she's posed. She's standing straight, smiling, her feet are tight together, and she's doing that thing where you're on the ball of one foot and the flat of the other. Her mace is loosely held and her shield is down.
It's not a huge deal, and I'm certainly not saying the female warrior is in a cheesecakey "come-hither" pose like we often saw in the Elmore days. Taken just as it is, this picture is miles better than most fantasy art. But it still bugs me, a little.
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Chain over a gambeson, typically. Probably a hauberk and leggings, unless you're talking First Crusade before leggings became common. Surcoat on top. Helmets - they vary. And of course Ghulam cavalry on the other side are pretty similar.
Though compared to Sassanid and Late Roman Clibanarii, they aren't especially heavy. There's a reason those were nicknamed "bakiing-ovens".
Knights would do this everywhere. No one walks/rides around the whole day in armor.
And thats why the "Knight in desert is silly" argument is, well, silly.
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I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
I'm with him the entire way through the article, and I really like the African-inspired fantasy folks there at the end -- they look like characters I want to play! 
The picture at the end wonks me a little because I don't see a tremendous difference between the first two pictures. The face on the second one is a little less cartoony, but the body is EVEN MORE cartoony (the horns and the tail seem like they've been glued on!), and the lady at the end certainly isn't dramatically "realistic," though she's closer to what I want than either of those two (seriously, HEELS? a choker? those exposed hips? Are they there to titillate 13 year old boys who don't know that the internet is full of pr0n?), but I think you could take that last one and make it more dynamic and less blocky, too.
But in the larger point of the article, I am on board so far. I think he makes the case well for not going crazy realistic with the armor, and I think that's smart -- this is a game of dragons and magic, we should not be stuck in what folks in medieval Europe wore. Such a thing may be present in limited ways (okay, a full-plate knight on horseback with a lance in a temperate-to-subarctic clime), but it doesn't need to be the sole representation of armored warriors in the game.
The picture at the end wonks me a little because I don't see a tremendous difference between the first two pictures. The face on the second one is a little less cartoony, but the body is EVEN MORE cartoony (the horns and the tail seem like they've been glued on!), and the lady at the end certainly isn't dramatically "realistic," though she's closer to what I want than either of those two (seriously, HEELS? a choker? those exposed hips? Are they there to titillate 13 year old boys who don't know that the internet is full of pr0n?), but I think you could take that last one and make it more dynamic and less blocky, too.
But in the larger point of the article, I am on board so far. I think he makes the case well for not going crazy realistic with the armor, and I think that's smart -- this is a game of dragons and magic, we should not be stuck in what folks in medieval Europe wore. Such a thing may be present in limited ways (okay, a full-plate knight on horseback with a lance in a temperate-to-subarctic clime), but it doesn't need to be the sole representation of armored warriors in the game.
This topic always gives me a chuckle, as both sides are often quite passionate about their views.
I like fantasy. That's why I play FRPG's. That's what I want to see in D&D artwork. Sure, they can borrow historical elements, but ultimately, I want it to be obvious that the artwork is not one from a historical game, but one from a fantasy game.
I voted Fantasy realism, but I don't mind variations to the manga side or to the historical side. The armor for a Chalice Knight, may look mostly historical with a hint of fantasy via heraldry and embellishments, while the armor for the Deathknight may have disproportionately large shoulders, a helm with only two pin points for eyes, spikes on the armor, and giant boots that realistically would make it impossible to walk. Both concepts can be drawn in similar styles to belong in the same universe, and yet they obey different "armor realism" rules.
I like fantasy. That's why I play FRPG's. That's what I want to see in D&D artwork. Sure, they can borrow historical elements, but ultimately, I want it to be obvious that the artwork is not one from a historical game, but one from a fantasy game.
I voted Fantasy realism, but I don't mind variations to the manga side or to the historical side. The armor for a Chalice Knight, may look mostly historical with a hint of fantasy via heraldry and embellishments, while the armor for the Deathknight may have disproportionately large shoulders, a helm with only two pin points for eyes, spikes on the armor, and giant boots that realistically would make it impossible to walk. Both concepts can be drawn in similar styles to belong in the same universe, and yet they obey different "armor realism" rules.
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