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Dragon’s-Eye View 3/28/2012... now with ENW poll!

So the armour you prefer in your DnD art is...

  • MANGA

    Votes: 6 3.6%
  • FANTASTIC REALISM

    Votes: 68 41.2%
  • PHOTOREALISM

    Votes: 74 44.8%
  • Other not represented

    Votes: 17 10.3%

Zireael

Explorer
My favorite is fantasy realism. With the exception of chain mail bikinis.

That is, I want armor with various unrealistic elements (wings, spikes, giant helmets etc) that wouldn't be worn in RL. But I do not like too much skin showing, since it makes the character easier to hurt (unless the char has protective magic items).
 

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My favorite is fantasy realism. With the exception of chain mail bikinis.

That is, I want armor with various unrealistic elements (wings, spikes, giant helmets etc) that wouldn't be worn in RL.

I beg your pardon.
husaria.jpg


Polish hussars, btw.
 


Crazy Jerome

First Post
Not that I'm in any way an artist, but I think what I like is fantastical art that is informed by realism. I don't mind things that are fantastical--even unlikely, but I do mind the pieces that leave you with the nagging doubt that the artist has no clue whatsoever about X, but drew it anyway.

If someone drew, say, a human arm shaped more like the foreleg of a cat, with claws on the hand, and it looks like some combination of a cat and person, you might say, "cool, it's a good drawing of how a cat person arm and hand would look, even if no such thing exists." If you see the same thing in a context where it is clear that "cat person" is the intent of the whole piece, but you suspect that the artist has paid little attention to the arms and hands of either people or cats, probably not so cool--or if it is cool, probably a happy accident unlikely to be repeated. A lot of fantasy drawing of armor strikes me as drawn by someone not paying attention to armor and the person wearing it.

There are probably more technical artistic terms to convey what I mean here. :D
 

I'd definitely go with fantastic realism, and I wouldn't want too much into photorealism as it would seem less like fantasy to me. Though some photorealism is fine. With the fantastic realism picture certainly one thing I can think of though with that example, is I wouldn't have female characters wear high-heels in combat, even if they were a spell-caster that flies in combat most of the time.

And I would definitely not like that particular example of manga, which is appropriate to label manga as for this example since it's a very distinct from the others.

Though I certainly feel there should be more of an effort to have show of those culturally "appropriate" armours.
 

delericho

Legend
I went with Fantastic Realism.

Here's how I'd represent the three styles mentioned:

Manga:

index-tv03.jpg


Fantastic Realism:

3469792960_bc7fa71baf.jpg


Photorrealism:

Q798XAL.JPG

For some reason, the "Manga" image didn't show up for me. Of the other two of these, though, I'd definitely prefer the second one. Whereas of the three in the OP (and article), only the third looked remotely acceptable.

I think that may be a problem with the three labels - when thinking of my preferred style, it's really a case of "I know it when I see it." (Which isn't terribly helpful, I know.)
 


delericho

Legend
There were a couple of things from the article that caught my eye, but I wasn't able to comment on until the WotC site came back up...

Can you imagine wandering the desert, even on horseback, in that? You'd bake in no time flat. Heck, for that matter, can you even guess how you'd get on the horse without a hoist and a couple of guys to help you? Can anyone tell me what's up with those goofy pointed toes? And forget about making a quick dash to the nearest portable toilet.

"May all those who go to don armour tomorrow, remember to go before they don armour tomorrow." - Prince Edmund, the Black Adder.

I mentioned environment. I'd like to discuss that topic for a moment. I've heard folks put down images that had people wandering around in nothing but loincloths. Before you discount the style of dress, please ask yourself whether it fit the culture and environment.

The problem is that in a world where other things exist, loincloths are silly. The moment a culture can craft any other type of armour (or, indeed, make anything we would describe as clothing), loincloths disappear - they're simply inferior in terms of protection, hygeine, and durability.

Tarzan doesn't coexist with Charlemagne. In any marginally-realistic world, he finds himself cut down in seconds.

Now, in terms of culture, while I was looking at armor and considering the topic of appropriateness, I spent a lot of time and energy researching historical female armor. Guess what? There isn't much armor. We can find mentions of Amazons, Valkyrie, and a few female warriors such as Joan of Arc depicted in literature and art, but outside of artistic renderings, we really don't have any solid evidence about what they actually looked like. Many scholars have guessed that they just wore smaller "men's armor" that was appropriate for their culture.

Historically, there really aren't a lot of women-warriors to draw from, at least amongst those who served openly. Of course, there are several tales of women who disguised themselves to serve - in which case they didn't wear "smaller men's armour" - what they wore was simply "men's armour".

Even though the image is from the BBC "Merlin" series, it's pretty historically correct. So this would be culturally appropriate, right? Well, all except for the part that it wasn't culturally appropriate for a woman to fight in that time period's military forces. That means we have to set aside reality for a moment and start looking at this discussion from the point of view of the hypothetical . . . or from the point of view of the fantasy setting.

I tend to agree. My preference for the implied setting is something like the "Battlestar Galactica" model, where of course a woman can be a warrior, or a fighter-pilot, or president, and nobody gives it even a moment's thought. That's not historically accurate, and it may or may not be 'realistic', but I think it's the best baseline assumption.

Where it comes to armour, then, I think the game would be best served by dressing female warriors in the armour that would exist had such a thing been common in our history. So, chain mail should indeed be as depicted - Morgause from "Merlin", rather than some equivalent of Seven of Nine's catsuit.

Similarly, plate armour should absolutely not be moulded to highlight the warrior's breasts, because that is stupidly impractical - doing so would direct incoming attacks in towards vital areas, rather than away.

We may not have examples, and we may not know how such armour would look, but we can certainly take a guess or two at how it is likely to be designed, given its purpose.

Basically, if the game is going to be serious about depicting female characters in dangerous situations, then it should depict them seriously - they're dungeoneers, not catwalk models!

So we've got this made-up culture, and now we start envisioning what townsfolk, merchants, nobles, and the military might look like. These guys are made-up, so it doesn't matter that there are no real-world cultural metaphors to draw from for a female fighter in the real-world cultures we pulled from. Instead, we just worry about whether the male and female feel like they are both from the same culture, and that they are appropriately armored for their culture, environment, technology, and materials.

Now we have two warriors from a particular culture. Each is wearing equivalent armor types of similar materials, gaining equal protection to the same types of threats, and looking like they belong together on the battlefield.

This is exactly what I would like to see. IMO, this is the point where the article is at its best. And the image of the two warriors (which I haven't quoted) is the best in the article. Again, IMO.

In other words, a male knight in full battle dress, wading through the desert sands, is just about as silly as a female fighter, in a chainmail bikini, forging through the frozen wastes of the Iceland Dale.

Not really. On the one hand, we have a knight who has been stupid enough to don armour inappropriate to his environment. On the other we have a female fighter who has been stupid enough to don 'armour' that is inappropriate to any environment.

Honestly, I'd rather not see chainmail bikinis anywhere in a D&D book. But if you feel you must have them, then fine - just don't pretend they're anything other than cheesecake.
 

delericho

Legend
Probably poor form to quote myself, but something just occurred to me...

Similarly, plate armour should absolutely not be moulded to highlight the warrior's breasts, because that is stupidly impractical - doing so would direct incoming attacks in towards vital areas, rather than away.

It occurs to me that quite a lot of the armour that we have in museums is actually dress armour - it was used for ceremonial occasions, but probably never intended for the battlefield. Obviously, such armour designed for a female fighter might well be much more "catwalk style" than the real armour used on adventures.

Even so, I would prefer such characters to be dressed appropriately for the individual scene - there's no reason that Alias or Laurana (or Sturm or Wulfgar for that matter) couldn't have one set of armour for the court scenes and entirely another for the dungeon!
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
It occurs to me that quite a lot of the armour that we have in museums is actually dress armour - it was used for ceremonial occasions, but probably never intended for the battlefield. Obviously, such armour designed for a female fighter might well be much more "catwalk style" than the real armour used on adventures.

Heh. Reminds me of the scene in Eddings' "Belgariad" series where Ce'Nedra wants some armor with some obvious female attributes--or in her case, actually exaggerated. When the smith complains that it is impractical in combat (not to mention immodest), she says that she isn't going to fight in it, but give speeches.
 
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