Commoner vs Fighter/Rogue vs Wizard/Cleric

[haakon1]

I use 3.5e as written, and the scenario of a mass fight that involves NPC classes occurs once in a while.

I've found the Commoner rules work quite well for things like people in a crowd being attacked by monsters (in "The Speaker in Dreams" WOTC module) and a village militia being attacked by orcs and werewolf-orcs (in a scenario I created).

Commoners CAN hit basic monsters like orcs and dire rats, even with just a dagger (for the city dwellers in a crowd) or a spear (village militia).

The difference compared to Experts or Warriors is mostly in their level of equipment -- a Commoner 1 Village Militiaman with two spears, no armor, no shield is considerably less effective than a Warrior 1 City Guard with a longsword, light crossbow, and studded leather armor or at best chainmail.

The difference to a PC Fighter 1 is more pronounced -- better stats, feats, possibly better equipment, and the big one -- Max hit points.

So yes, most of what a Fighter can do, an Expert or Commoner or Aristocrat can also do, but the Fighter is much more successful at.

That works just right for me.

Oh, and rarely, I've had an NPC "manifest" a PC class in midfight. I did that once (in AD&D rules) when a kid who was raised by an LG cleric was fighting invaders of the Keep on the Borderlands and did much better than expected. Faith plus orphan raised by LG cleric plus the clear will of the gawds (as expressed through the dice) = instant paladin!

And I've referred to that sort of thing in the backstory of a villain once, when a PC got to know her pretty well and they were talking about their pasts. She became a cleric of Asmodeus because she prayed to him when Iuz was destroying her village, and she miraculously gained the power to Turn Undead and heal herself.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

No, thanks.

I prefer that classes have unique abilities that only they can do. Want to sneak attack? Learn to be a rogue. Want to cast arcane spells? Learn to be a wizard. Good multi-classing can fix this.

 

[howandwhy99]

I've found when odds get below a certain point they become nothing but time sinks during play.

"Birds can fly, why can't I?" Flap your arms and try.

Do we even need to roll the odds of shooting up out into space?

I suppose we can give everyone a 5%-95% chance of doing anything and everything. "I do everything" might be what the game turns into though.

 

[Stormonu]

The commoner might be able to stick a pitchfork into a goblin, but he shouldn't get multiple attacks to do so. That is the home of the fighter (and a mistake 3E made in giving EVERYONE iterative attacks).

The commoner could sneak out the back door and whack someone from behind, but he shouldn't get sneak attack damage. That is the arena of the rogue.

The commoner could fashion a charm to protect himself based on some wive's tale, but it wouldn't be an arcane spell. That is the domain of the wizard.

The commoner could mutter a prayer to the gods to protect him, but it wouldn't be a divine spell. That is the of provost the cleric.

If the commoner wants to do any of these things, he should have to multiclass. If the DM's really generous, he might be able to acquire a weakened version via a feat. If this is not done, there's no reason to have classes. And a classess D&D just isn't good ol' D&D.

 

[outsider]

There are PLENTY of things ordinary people can't even attempt without training. If I passed you my bass and told you to play the bass line from the song Alive Again by New Jacobin Club, would you even be able to attempt it? If somebody jumped you in an alley, would you be able to try to put him in a gogoplata choke or kick him with a reverse side kick?

Probably not. You most likely don't have the skill, knowledge, or training to do any of the above with even a .0001% chance of success(and note the minimum chance of success in D&D is 5%). The commoner would have no idea how to execute any advanced combat technique. He could swing a sword, sure. He could make a feeble attempt at a trip probably. He wouldn't even know what a ballestra is, so no, he wouldn't be able to attempt it.

The question, I guess, is should D&D actually include advanced combat techniques at all? If the answer is yes, anything beyond the most basic should be the purview of martial characters. If you want to learn an advanced combat technique, you should have to take a level in a martial class, just like you have to take a level in a caster class if you want to learn a spell.

 

[Elf Witch]

There are PLENTY of things ordinary people can't even attempt without training. If I passed you my bass and told you to play the bass line from the song Alive Again by New Jacobin Club, would you even be able to attempt it? If somebody jumped you in an alley, would you be able to try to put him in a gogoplata choke or kick him with a reverse side kick?

Probably not. You most likely don't have the skill, knowledge, or training to do any of the above with even a .0001% chance of success(and note the minimum chance of success in D&D is 5%). The commoner would have no idea how to execute any advanced combat technique. He could swing a sword, sure. He could make a feeble attempt at a trip probably. He wouldn't even know what a ballestra is, so no, he wouldn't be able to attempt it.

The question, I guess, is should D&D actually include advanced combat techniques at all? If the answer is yes, anything beyond the most basic should be the purview of martial characters. If you want to learn an advanced combat technique, you should have to take a level in a martial class, just like you have to take a level in a caster class if you want to learn a spell.

But people without training have picked up a gun and shot someone. With no training at all I picked up a crossbow pointed and fired and hit the target near to the middle. There have been cases of people grabbing a kitchen knife and killing an intruder.

I am not trained in martial arts but I once kicked a purse snatcher in his knee and broke it.

As for the god thing. Are you saying that gods would just ignore every single time a call from one of their most faithful for aide? I don't find that believable. which is why I have the god call mechanic in all my games. There there is always a chance a slim chance that your god might answer you.

I also like the idea of a hedge witch who is basically a commoner being able to cast a few cantrips. I don't want to multiclass them as say a wizard and deal with all the stuff a wizard gets at first level.

 

[Andor]

Class abilities represent extensive training. High level abilities represent training and experience.

Jon the farmer cannot perform a moulinet and parry in septime, stab an orc in the squiggly-spoodge from ambush, cast magic missile, or heal a cut with divine magic. PCs cannot identify the early sign of black rust on wheat either.

Jon the farmer can do any of these things with enough training. At which point he is no longer Jon the farmer, he is Jon the fighter/rogue/wizard/cleric.

Jon is a capable enough guy. He probably has the occasional drunken brawl at the pub. Depending on the political set-up he may get some militia drills in in sundays. He will be able to fully utilize the basic rules of the combat system. If there is a 4e page 42 style stunt system he will have access to it, just like anyone else with his exact stats. If there are ambush or sneak attack rules anyone can use, he will be able to use them.

He can strap on armour, but will take whatever non-proficiency penalty the system assigns. He can use any weapon he pleases but will take any non-proficency penalty the rules assign.

He cannot use any class abilities or feats he has not trained in. If he sees orcs coming he raises the alarm and defends his familly as best he can. If he sees magic he fetches the local priest or hedge mage. He pays them with food, because that's what his class abilities let him do.

 

[outsider]

But people without training have picked up a gun and shot someone. With no training at all I picked up a crossbow pointed and fired and hit the target near to the middle. There have been cases of people grabbing a kitchen knife and killing an intruder.

Shooting a gun or crossbow isn't an advanced combat technique. Ease of use is one of the primary reasons those weapons were/are used. It's also not particularly hard to figure out how to stab somebody with a knife, or kick them in the knee.

There are much more complicated maneuvers available to trained melee combatants, however. Stuff that the unknowledgeable haven't even heard of. And if you haven't even heard of something, how the heck would you attempt to do it?

 

[CleverNickName]

The section of the 3.5E PHB about "Practically Impossible Tasks" actually made me cringe when I read it, particularly when it gave a Balance DC for not snapping a tree branch:

[SBLOCK="Nerd Rage!"]

"Sometimes you want to do something that seems practically impossible. In general, a task considered practically impossible has a DC of 40, 60, or even high (or it carries a modifier of +20 or more to the DC).

Practically impossible tasks are hard to delineate ahead of time. They're the accomplishments that represent incredible, almost logic-defying skill and luck. Picking a lock by giving it a single, swift kick might entail a +20 modifier to the DC; swimming up a waterfall could require a Swim check against DC 80, and balancing on a fragile tree branch might have a DC of 90.

The DM decides what is actually impossible and what is merely practically impossible. Characters with very high skill modifiers are capable of accomplishing incredible, almost unbelievable tasks, just as characters with very high combat bonuses are."

- the 3.5E PHB, page 65​

Seriously? Enough training in Balance allows me to defy the laws of gravity and/or material science, so that a twig's elastic modulus can support a 200-lb body? Or if I learn to pick locks well enough, I can bend physics to turn the force of a single boot impact into multi-directional torques, divide them among the dozens of separate parts of a complicated lock, in the proper order, so that all of the tumblers align all by themselves? And don't even get me started on how the Swim skill could be used to change the size, shape, and drag coefficient of a human being to equal that of a salmon.

Rawr. Grrrr. Huff huff huff...whew. Sorry about that; I just needed to get that off my chest. I think I've got my nerd rage in check now.[/SBLOCK]
The "kitchen sink character" is a trend that I don't really care for. I think every character class should have an iconic ability that cannot be emulated (or even attempted) by any other classes. Whether it is fighting with a katana or casting a spell, these things should be beyond the reach of the ordinary population. A fighter might be able to surprise his foe and catch him off guard, but only a rogue adds sneak attack damage.

Otherwise, why bother with classes at all?

 

[TwinBahamut]

Wow, total opposite of me. My complaint with that excerpt is that the DCs are too high, making such feats indeed nearly impossible, even for fairly high-level characters.