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D&D 5E Poll on the Reaper: is damage on missed melee attack roll believable and balanced?

Is the Reaper believable and balanced (i.e. not overpowered)?


You could just tell yourself that the reaper always hits and is rolling a d20 to decide whether or not he hit really hard, or just a glancing blow/wild swing.
I think that might actually be worse. I think a certain element of risk and uncertainty makes combat more exciting. It's hard to believe (and dull) that someone will always hit, no matter what.

Nah, it's far easier to just tell myself the Reaper feat doesn't exist. We've been playtesting the fighter with no Theme at all for several games now, and it's just about perfect.
 
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Umm... Depends. The Fighter certainly didn't MIND killing a kobold every round.

Here's the thing... It effectively models how even a low-level highly-aggressive heavy-duty Warrior can smash Kobolds without breaking a sweat. They don't stand a chance, one-on-one. It's a way to dominate weak foes, which I think is thematically excellent. (As a note - he died to kobolds, so it's far from a game-winner.)

For foes with more than 2hp it largely didn't much matter. If they were weak, the next blow would have killed them anway. If they were strong, it was a pinprick.

Yeah, it's kind of a dull mechanic, but I still don't understand this tempest-in-a-teapot. I think it needs to be restricted to melee-only though; he threw his crossbow at a kobold and it killed it automatically.

-O

yes and no... in our first game our fighter had the most fun with it, in our second it was a little boreing.

I've had no problems with it during actual play. Very positive psychological reactions: that is, it FEELS awesome because you cannot effectively miss. Loss aversion is one of the strongest instincts in people, and the reason this works in actual play is because it avoids triggering that feeling that everyone else gets when they roll a d20: I might fail.

Now just like I can grok those who play a wizard who want that feel, I can grok that not everyone wants to get rid of that fear. Which is cool, and I'm totally in favor of it, and that's why putting it in a swappable feat is a good idea. :)

Another thought. In play, does automatic damage disincentivize improvised actions? That is, are fighters less inclined to do Awesome Things because doing so means giving up their risk-free damage?

Honestly, the more I think about it the more boring it sounds--I worry that something novel and fun for a couple sessions will become a drag two months in.

It looks like I'll have to throw a playtest campaign together at some point and give these new rules an extended whirl.
 

You could just tell yourself that the reaper always hits and is rolling a d20 to decide whether or not he hit really hard, or just a glancing blow/wild swing.

Yes. This seem pretty obvious to me.

And a suggested fix: If you say that on a 1 you deal no damage, even with Reaper, then you still do no damage. That would give folks who can't handle "can never miss" some peace of mind.

Another suggested fix: Set the minimum HP of all monsters to a minimum of Reaper damage +1 (or set Reaper damage to min HP -1).
 

Yes. This seem pretty obvious to me.

And a suggested fix: If you say that on a 1 you deal no damage, even with Reaper, then you still do no damage. That would give folks who can't handle "can never miss" some peace of mind.

Another suggested fix: Set the minimum HP of all monsters to a minimum of Reaper damage +1 (or set Reaper damage to min HP -1).
You don't really have to go through all that trouble, though. Themes and Backgrounds are optional, so if someone has a hangup on it (like I do), we can just not use it.

There is no Reaper. *Jedi hand wave*
 

Honestly, I don't get this part. My feat would help a slayer with killing weak (or weakened) enemies. Advantage on an attack is a big thing. Near auto-hit and kill against low AC monsters.
Yes, but spending your entire turn to kill a single kobold isn't helpful at all, regardless if it's a 65% chance or a 100% chance. The thing about weak opponents is that they're strong in numbers. If the point is to make him better at fighting weak opponents, why not something that deals damage (even a small amount) to more than one target? How about giving the fighter free attacks (like one per fighter level) against enemies below a certain max hp threshold? Both of those not only have precedent in D&D, but I feel are much better designed game pieces.
 

if the dragon has 190 hitpoints it did alot in 6 rounds (about 20hp) if it didn't it doesn;r help till round 7, inless someone else kills it inbeteew it having 5hp and you going...

20 hp in that example would be the amount of 1 solid hit of the slayer, so the fight ends earlier.

My reaper feat would give the slayer an advantage on the attack on the weakened dragon. Everyone could kill the 5 hp dragon, yes - but a 5 hp dragon could still dodge all other attacks. The slayer would have an easier time with him because he's weakened, so he has a good chance to end the fight earlier instead of other characters who don't have advantage.

But as I said maybe the 5 hp threshold could be bumped up to a 10 hp threshold to make it a little bit more effective. I don't think that advantage should be underestimated against 'minion' or weakened opponents.

-YRUSirius
 

The problem is that the poll didn't give an option of I really dislike this and think it is broken but I will still play the new edition.

Not everyone who does not like the feat as it is written now are saying well this a deal breaker for me. I don't like this feat as written and I am not saying that.
It seems that you checked the box saying that "I HATE damage on miss and will only play a D&D next game that excludes such effects" - and I (and perhaps others) had been reading your posts in that light.

If in fact you really meant to check something along the lines of "Bad for believability; also bad for balance" that helps me make sense of what you've beein saying in your recent posts.

Both the numbers and the intensity matter.

It is about how divided the D&D community is. If 30-40 percent of the community really, really, strongly dislikes the mechamic, they could loose a large chunk of potential customers.
Intriguing. So would this be an argument for including 4e-style incombat healing in the game, given that there are a good chunk of 4e players for whom the pacing of combat is pretty important?

I think you can get the core mechanics to 80-90 percent and then build the 70 % or less options on top of that.
But Reaper is an option. It's a feat associated with a theme. If it causes trouble at a table, that table can agree not to use it. (Just as, at my 4e table, we don't use the Expertise feats.)

The poll doesn't indicate that 67% of the people want. That only rises to some 4-ish% at this point. 64% accept or don't oppose it and that's not really the same as want. The poll's wording doesn't support that inference.
I'm sorry, but that is pretty close to ridiculous. Have a look at those in the 64% camp, call to mind their posting histories, and then ask yourself - are they just tolerating this feat, or do they like it (or the sort of design approach that it represents)?

The damage may not be high, but the possibility of never missing in melee is pretty big.
I don't think it's that big. I mean, magic missile never missed in AD&D, B/X, 3E and (latter-day) 4e. But it wasn't the only spell used, and it wasn't even the only 1st level spell used (both Sleep and Charm saw use, for example, and Charm has always had a miss chance).

The thing is, both Reaper and at-will magic missile have been extensively tested... in 4e. The assumptions about combat may be different from 5e, but at least in 4th edition neither were remotely unbalanced.

Also, I've seen people say that the other cantrips are unbalanced, but once again, we didn't really experience this when we used them in 4e. Take the 5e Ray of Frost, which even WotC may think is on the overpowered end. You can pretty easily get at-will immobilization in 4e... that also damages. It just isn't that compelling or powerful in practice.
I think immobilise at will can be overly strong in some circumstances, actually. The fighter PC in my game has immobilise on any basic attack, and it makes his oppys and combat challenge attacks at least arguably overpowered.

Part of the balance in 4e is that there are other powers available to the PCs, which give them a reason not to use Magic Missile or Reaping Strike or a basic attack. It seems that D&Dnext will have less of these, in the name of verisimilitude - so Reaper is really more like Hammer Rhythm than any particular 4e power. Hammer Rhythm is generally regarded as pretty good, isn't it? But not overpowered? (I don't follow the optimisation discussions very closesly.)

Keeping in mind that it is far easier to add things in than to strip them out, if auto-damage is removed you're always welcome and able to add it back in.
I don't think these sorts of general claim are very helpful.

For example: it is trivial to strip overnight healing out of 4e. Completely trivial. A stroke of the pen can change that rule. Whereas it is a huge job to strip incombat healing out of 4e - incombat healing is utterly central to the play of the game.

It is very hard to add healing surges into AD&D. I would have to change healing spells, natural healing rules, aspects of class design and balance, etc. On the other hand, it is trivial to add a new weapon into AD&D. Just write up some damage numbers, speed factor and weapon vs armour mods.

It is trivial both to add, and to remove, particular monsters from any edition of D&D, because of the comparative ease of monster design and the existence of long lists of monsters. Magic items less so (eg most versions of D&D will break down if the PCs don't get some magic weapons, given the prevelance of monsters which need magic to hit).

I don't think there is any general rule. But in this case, it strikes me as pretty trivial for those groups who don't like damage on a miss just to make sure that none of their PCs takes the theme/feat!
 

I don't think there is any general rule. But in this case, it strikes me as pretty trivial for those groups who don't like damage on a miss just to make sure that none of their PCs takes the theme/feat!
Yep.

Let's just hope the "damage on a miss" stuff stays confined to Themes, as the game development continues. Some of us would like to continue to ignore them.
 

Yep.

Let's just hope the "damage on a miss" stuff stays confined to Themes, as the game development continues. Some of us would like to continue to ignore them.

I would totaly support the idea of only a very few (or even 1) way to do this, would that make anyone happy?

only 1 feat... is there anyone who could not get behind that?
 

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