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D&D 5E Do we really need D&D:Next to be the One Edition?

Tony Vargas

Legend
- Characters will be modular but balanced. You can have a character with a lot of different options or one with fewer options and still have them both balanced against one another.
It sounds like they're backing away from this one, and the modularity will be more a DM resource. The DM will decide which modules are available, so you can pick and chose the AD&D feel of the first playtest, or a more player-driven 3e or 4e feel by tacking on the right modules. It'll be very much like supporting all editions at once, just with everyone having to buy new rulebooks - which is what the designer's collective fiduciary duty to Hasbro stockholders requires, anyway, so it's unavoidable.
 

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dammitbiscuit

First Post
For many of us, if 5e succeeds at its goals, it means we get our friends back - whichever friends clung to the other edition that we don't enjoy playing.
 

(without having read the bulk of this thread):

Well said.
...broad edition support may have even helped them hang on a bit longer; in that things like settings and adventures for 2e could be relatively easily ported into 1e and 0e and thus they probably sold a few more than if they had been completely incompatible.

This is, to me, the best, most realistic goal of 5e. Players who have their favorite past edition or retroclone will probably not abandon that for the latest edition, but if WOTC can publish adventures, supplements, and other goodies that are more broadly cross-compatible between editions, then maybe these lapsed players might find a reason to begin picking up new WOTC products again.
 

Iosue

Legend
It sounds like they're backing away from this one, and the modularity will be more a DM resource.
I don't see that at all. Since the very beginning they've always said there'd be modularity for players (complexity in chargen) and modularity for DMs (playstyle). That hasn't changed. Themes and backgrounds are all about that modularity for characters. If it seems like a lot of the discussion is on DM modularity, it's because that's in the playtest rules, and the modular chargen rules are not.
 

Gorgoroth

Banned
Banned
..

For many of us, if 5e succeeds at its goals, it means we get our friends back - whichever friends clung to the other edition that we don't enjoy playing.

Yes! I concur. For me, I would only play in another 4e game if there were inherent bonuses added, 1/2 level mods removed entirely, non magical healing encounter powers refluffed as magical, and proper at-will flight for dragonborns at level 11 or 16 tops. And a whole list of other fixes that they will never do to make stuff feel "dangery" again. I like tactical combat, but I don't like feeling invincible. But for the sake of fun + friendships, if ANY of my friends were willing to DM 4th ed again, I'd play (probably even without any of those preconditions...except for inherent bonuses, that's a dealbreaker for me if it isn't there).

Others of my friends just won't play anything but Pathfinder or are even bored with D&D-style RPGs altogether from burnout...having something fresh, exciting, that works, and can get everyone back together at the same table, that would be ideal. I'm sure it won't be perfect, but from what I've seen the new rules are already much closer to what makes a D&D game feel like D&D, fast, action-packed, exciting, theater of the mind or grids (some DMs get very annoyed at having the setup time each battle to put out your minis because otherwise the players' powers don't get used properly without seeing exact positions). Seeing the tactical battle map in a bird's eye view is a necessity in a game where 1/2 or 3/4 of your powers have very specific triggers based on position. Removing AoOs is one of the big changes, apparently, which my old AD&D 2e DM who's stuck to that edition for 20 years except for a brief foray into 3.0 for 6 months...when we argued and argued all the time about AoOs originally. He was soured on those and never wants to go back...if I could get back into gaming with him, that would be insanely good, he was the best story-wise DM I've ever had, but let's be honest here, AD&D was insanely broken and needed a ton of fixes. I wouldn't go back to it, myself.

I would play 3.5 or Pathfinder any day though...But even others of my friends don't want to play those versions. / sigh.

D&D Next is our one big hope.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
Say, you want to go on a trip, so you drive by your friend's house to pick him up. He comes out the door and goes "What the f*** are you thinking there is no way in hell I'll be riding in a Toyota!!" To which you would react with "Shut up and get in the car."

Say, you want to go on an adventure, so you drive by your friend's house to play a game. You get your books out and he goes "What the f*** are you thinking there is no way in hell I'll be playing the wrong edition!!" To which you would react with "Shut up and roll initiative."

I find myself caring less and less about this whole edition thing each day.
I think it's time we as geeks declare bitching about the edition as socially unacceptable. In the end, it just doesn't matter what car you drive to the land of magical elf pretend.

But people actually do this. A friend shows up in an old clunker that leaks exhaust into the passenger area, I'm turning the ride down. Same if certain other friends show up on motorcycles.

A friend shows up with Vampire and says that's what we're playing, I'm turning him down. I'm not interested. Other friends of mine would do the same if I brought over Call of Cthulhu. Why should we expect editions to be different? That may not be likely for Champions or Call of Cthulhu where edition differences are relatively small. But 4e's a very different game from 3e. Fans of one may not be interested in playing the other. I find this perfectly fair. I'm not that interested in playing games I don't like.
 

Tovec

Explorer
TL/DR - By all means play what you like. I'm unconvinced.

I'm snipping, rearranging and bolding where appropriate to make myself more clear.

- Characters will be modular but balanced. You can have a character with a lot of different options or one with fewer options and still have them both balanced against one another.

- The tactical rules module will reflect the sort of tactical play from 4e, with shifting, sliding, pushing, and pulling. It will also not be required on an encounter-to-encounter basis so I can run one encounter in the 1st Ed theater of the mind style and the second in a grid-and-minis 4e style with the same group of characters.

- I can build my encounters with a strict encounter budget and set it up in an episodic manner like 4e, or run something more like the Caves of Chaos adventure in the playtest document that's more fluid.

- Monsters will be both plug-and-play in 4e style where I can easily build an adventure as well as giving me options for leveling monsters up or down to give a different and unique challenge.

All of these things point to me getting exactly what I want out of a new edition

Then may I recommend playing 4e?

You seem to enjoy many aspects of 4e, of all which made it into 5e (or are at least discussed) but it doesn't really ring true of older edition material. Balance was the driving goal of 4e. Slipping and sliding combat minis are a main feature of 4e. "Plug and play" monsters, as you call them, are a feature of 4e that many enjoy. I don't enjoy having the boss/solo/elite mindset when making monsters, nor the minion/lacky/1(2hp) design either. I see both in 5e so far. A lot of what you seem to like and what you say the designers are talking about sounds like 4e with new math. It doesn't sound like 5e with modules for 4e, and different ones for 3e, or 2e, or 1e.

- the ability to play the game how I want to play it and how my players want to play it with very little debate. They can make the characters they want, and I can write the style of adventures I want to write. And from the way they talk about it, this is exactly how it is in the in-house playtest.
So far we have seen very few options for players in the playtest, we have heard other ones are somewhere in development but so far in the playtest we have remarkably few options. I don't see how they can "make the characters they want" in any respect with the playtest material we have so far. I doubt we will be able to make the characters we want, a la 2e kits and PF's achetypes and 3e's multiclassing/prestiges, at all. Instead I see backgrounds and themes flooding out of core books and splatbooks to try and make up the breech - which won't do me or mine at all.

Are there rough edges?
It isn't the rough edges that bother me or make me skeptical. It is the overarching assumptions and goals of 5e.

5e needs to make a game that will interest as many people as possible. To get there they would do well to not alienate anyone they have and they would do well to get players they have lost.

It doesn't necessarily track, however, that they need to incorporate all aspects from the history of DnD. It doesn't track either that newer is better. Better is better. Cleaner is debatable better. This is just new. For example, advantage/disadvantage seems like a good idea but has created a whole slew of new issues. I like the innovation but then they turn around and continue the assumptions you listed above, with 4e creations and goals of "balance".

Also, as others have said on other threads, if they are going to do modularity then it needs to be something they do from the outset. If they are going to balance it they have to make sure that it is balanced with those modules in thought from the beginning. That isn't happening. I'm glad it is working for you, it isn't working for me. And so far you haven't really given me a reason why you think it will work for your fractured player-base.

So yes, I'm optimistic. Because everything I've seen about the game is exactly what I want and need. Easy to run, easy to play, easy to customize. What more can you want from a roleplaying game?

What we have seen so far isn't much. What we have seen so far is pregen characters so the "easy to customize" kind of goes out the window too.

I understand they need to focus on a lot of areas but it seems like they don't really have a firm goal of what they want to accomplish before starting and that I think is a mistake.

When retroclones start out I doubt they try to reinvent everything from the ground up all at once. They more likely try to address the most glaring issues and move onto the other parts from there. Deal with a small issue then expand dealing with that consequences also helps.

They partially had to do that when they introduced flatter math and ability saves. But since introducing these they haven't innovated or re-examined the core system hardly at all. They especially haven't made it "modular but balanced". And they haven't given me any reason to think this is a better edition to try out. Nor am I seeing this to be a better edition for anyone, except people who seem to like the new and shiny.

Three things from the playtest document itself. First, the core rules are simple and clear. Attribute checks, contests, and saves are very simple to rule. Second, the characters feel heroic out of the gate while still being mortal. Third, they've got the feel of 1st/2nd edition down.

The core rules are simple and clear because the how to play document is 31 pages. What happens when we have hundreds of pages for the core books, then hundreds more every few months, culminating in thousands of new pages every year.
Yes, as always, the new material will be optional. But if they keep the 4e mindset that everything is "Core" then ware going to encounter issues of clarity very shortly. Leading to a 6e in only a few years time.
The same goes for simplicity.

I don't really like my characters feeling heroic out of the gate. You do and that's cool. But I have yet to see any real options to alleviate this. The infamous issue of perfect healing in a night, HD for self healing, more HP (in general) and weaker monsters all add to the feeling of invulnerability. I like my PCs to feel tough but I would also like to have a level of suspense and mortality as a default throughout the game unless I choose to make them feel immortal.
Caveat: The only option I have heard of for "less heroic" feel is to cut the themes/backgrounds. That doesn't make them feel less heroic, it only makes them feel kneecapped by lack of abilities. Removing the +3 on diplomacy isn't going to help with the feelings of heroics.

They have the feeling of 1e/2e down.. is debatable. The playtest is faster, I'll give you that. But it also lacks a lot of the roughness, exploration and excitement of 1e/2e too. As I recall I had much fewer HP, for example, as a 2e character than I do as a 5e character - of any class. Monster HP seem to be the same though, except the ogre. There is a lot of codification, an aspect which I liked of 3e but often discarded, but that doesn't strike me as particularly 1e/2e either.
Another caveat: I haven't played any 1e and not much 2e, so I will grant that my feeling may be a little skewed.

From what others have said, more so than what you did, I can see that they re-captured at least some of the long lost feeling of 1st and 2nd editions. Add in the rules and assumptions of 4e, points made by you.

My question still remains, what about 3e players? How about your PF players, what is there for them to be excited about?
 

That may not be likely for Champions or Call of Cthulhu where edition differences are relatively small. But 4e's a very different game from 3e.
"Very different" is purely relative, though. If you're comparing Call of Cthulhu, 3E D&D and 4E D&D, are the latter two very different? They're both very different from Call of Cthulhu, but when compared to Call of Cthulhu, they're very similar to each other.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
"Very different" is purely relative, though. If you're comparing Call of Cthulhu, 3E D&D and 4E D&D, are the latter two very different? They're both very different from Call of Cthulhu, but when compared to Call of Cthulhu, they're very similar to each other.

So are any fantasy RPGs, when compared to CoC. But Runequest isn't D&D, nor is Rolemaster, nor Rifts, nor Heroic Legends, nor Ars Magica, nor Stormbringer. And I wouldn't have any problem with a player balking at playing any one of those because they don't like it. Why should D&D players be held to a different standard of inclusiveness?
 

So are any fantasy RPGs, when compared to CoC. But Runequest isn't D&D, nor is Rolemaster, nor Rifts, nor Heroic Legends, nor Ars Magica, nor Stormbringer. And I wouldn't have any problem with a player balking at playing any one of those because they don't like it. Why should D&D players be held to a different standard of inclusiveness?
No "should" involved. But we're all pretending to be elves in slightly different ways, and any outsider would find the level of divisiveness invoked due to differences in editions of a particular game to be downright silly, I'm sure. Just trying to show a different point of view.
 

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