D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Remathilis]

D&D doesn't do this. D&D magic works on the principle of: "don't think too hard about it." Since all supernatural powers in D&D already fall under the purview of "don't think too hard about it", why can't we apply that logic to martial stuff as well?

Because when does it stop?

Do all fighters get magic, or just the PCs? What if every guard in town is a first level fighter: do they all have magic? If the guards do, why not the butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers?

If everyone has magic, its stops being wonderous. Already, the game is overladen with classes which get minor spellcasting for legacy reasons (paladin, ranger, bard, assassin, etc) and magical items have had a long slide toward boring necessity. The answer isn't to give everyone else wahoo, its to tone the wahoo done so that torches are more common than continual lanterns and PCs have reasons to take healing skills and not just mass-produce CLW wands.

Because if everyone is special, nobody is.

 

[Underman]

No, I think the courage-and-willpower system being very vague is absolutely fine, that's the whole point. I'm actually pointing out that the "details" of the magic system are themselves very vague and don't make a lot of sense if you start picking at the details. And, as such, expecting the fighter "system" to stand up to such scrutiny is a double standard.

It's not a double standard when I have to roleplay the fighter and I want to understand what's going on his own damn mind so that I can get into the character role, and you know, roleplay. It doesn't matter how the magic system stands up to scrutiny in the detail that you've examined, because it has nothing to do with roleplaying the mage who casts spells according to an esoteric spellbook that he may or may not understand when the process is entirely external. That's a hell of a lot easier than roleplaying the fighter who has 2 separated distinct sets of courage and will, one for ocean leaping and one for mountain bashing.

 

[Fifth Element]

If a person has the "capacity for one or two super-heroic acts of daring/strength/stamina in them during the course of an active day", then let the fighter leap 500 ft 1 x day and super cleave 1 x day or leap 2 x day or super cleave 2 x day.

This is one good way of doing it. This is also one reason many people prefer point-based spellcasting systems, because the whole per-day thing strains their suspension of disbelief.

Again, I'm not arguing that fighter mythic exploits need to be on a per-day basis like wizard spells have traditionally have been, just that the fighter should be able to do mythic things using some mechanic or another.

 

[Fifth Element]

Because when does it stop?

When we decide it does. This is a designed game system, after all. We can stop it wherever we like.

Because if everyone is special, nobody is.

Heh. Sounds like only wizards are allowed to be special.

 

[Imaro]

But this is not how human memory works. Which is absolutely fine, so long as we don't then say something like "Nor does anyone have the courage and willpower to do one specific task exactly once per day, but retain the courage and willpower to do other equally impressive tasks that same day."

Real-world understanding of courage and willpower is being applied to the fighter, but real-world understanding of memory is not being applied to wizards. The rift remains.

How do you know this isn't how "human" (because there are a ton of races that aren't human) memory works when it comes to spells. The fact of the matter is that D&D has established that this is in fact how memorization of spells works...

The problem ios that you on the other hand are trying to use a real world resource (courage and willpower) without giving us that middle element (spells for a wizard) that is the "how" the fighter uses courage and willpower to produce supernatural/mythical/whatever. That's why it falls apart. Since no one in the world can tell us how spells interact with anything... there is no conflict. The thing is you don't want to define what it is the fighter is using to mold, focus, whatever his courage and willpower.

 

[Fifth Element]

That's a hell of a lot easier than roleplaying the fighter who has 2 separated distinct sets of courage and will, one for ocean leaping and one for mountain bashing.

You're getting tied up in the specific mechanics. I'm not suggesting that fighters should have some sort of power structure similar to the wizard's; that's not the point of discussing the wizard's mechanics. Just that the fighter should have some sort of mechanic to be able to do mythic stuff.

 

[Fifth Element]

How do you know this isn't how "human" (because there are a ton of races that aren't human) memory works when it comes to spells. The fact of the matter is that D&D has established that this is in fact how memorization of spells works...

How do you know this isn't how "human" (because there are a ton of races that aren't human) courage works when it comes to mythic acts...

The problem ios that you on the other hand are trying to use a real world resource (courage and willpower) without giving us that middle element (spells for a wizard) that is the how he uses courage and willpower to produce supernatural/mythical/whatever.

I believe I called them "exploits" earlier in the thread.

 

[Underman]

You're getting tied up in the specific mechanics. I'm not suggesting that fighters should have some sort of power structure similar to the wizard's; that's not the point of discussing the wizard's mechanics. Just that the fighter should have some sort of mechanic to be able to do mythic stuff.

I don't feel I'm getting tied up in the mechanics per se. I feel I'm getting tied up in interpreting how the mechanics ideas that you or others have brought up in the last few pages would force me to imagine (for better or worse) how to roleplay that character. Some of the mechanics ideas seem quite difficult to imagine subjectively on behalf of the PC.

 

[Imaro]

How do you know this isn't how "human" (because there are a ton of races that aren't human) courage works when it comes to mythic acts...


I believe I called them "exploits" earlier in the thread.

You keep going around in circles... define an "exploit" and how a fighter uses it in the same way that D&D has defined a spell and how a wizard uses it and we might finally be getting somewhere... but if he can just use an exploit "BECAUSE"... then everyone should be able to do exploits whenever they feel like it.

EDIT: Perhaps I'm not being clear enough. The fact that a D&D wizard must memorize his spells form his spellbooks each day is not just a limiter but also shows one aspect of spells in the fiction. What are exploits in the fiction?

 

[Mallus]

Do all fighters get magic, or just the PCs? What if every guard in town is a first level fighter: do they all have magic? If the guards do, why not the butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers?

A lot of NPC get magic items in your typical AD&D module. Basically, if the PCs can encounter them, then they stand a reasonable chance of possessing usable magic. You can also find items in barrels and empty cupboards (I kid, barely).

The charts in the AD&D DMG also reflect this. See Appendix C: Random Monster Encounters, particularly the Chance Per Level For Magic Item chart.

According to it, any 1st level town guard has a %10 chance of having a magic sword (in addition to other items). To be clear, that's a %10 per level.

It's virtually a given that NPCs with class levels will have magic -- and remember, some of AD&D random encounter charts can yield encounters with L10+ NPCs.

If everyone has magic, its stops being wondrous.

Then virtually all PC parties cease being wondrous by 5th level.

Because if everyone is special, nobody is.

In my book, this is most wrongheaded quote that people simply won't stop repeating. Why do nerds love it so? It drives me batty... do I need to turn in my Nerd Card?