D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Fifth Element]

I know why the mage can cast a fireball spell once per day, he has the spell recipe for it, he forgets the recipe after casting, and needs a full rest to restore it.

Yet in 4E, when a fighter "forgets" how to do a maneuver after using it, the game is vilified for it.

A wizard has cast this spell every day for the past two years, and yet he keeps forgetting how to cast it, even after just casting it. Surely if you've just done the thing, you're more likely to remember how to do that thing?

There are demands that the fighter-exploit thing "make sense" in the game, because wizards have a structure they have to adhere to for "it's magic" to work. But if the wizard's structure doesn't make any more sense than "just because", that's not much of a hurdle. It's an arbitrary stricture, and as such any arbitrary stricture we choose to put on the fighter should do just as well.

The fighter forgets how to do the thing until he gets some rest and thinks about it again. There, now his structure makes as much sense as a wizard's.

 

[Underman]

Yet in 4E, when a fighter "forgets" how to do a maneuver after using it, the game is vilified for it.

Yep, that's been the case.

A wizard has cast this spell every day for the past two years, and yet he keeps forgetting how to cast it, even after just casting it.

Correct. It doesn't matter why. The specific point in the referenced post is that the process is external to the mage. It doesn't matter what the mage thinks about it.

There are demands that the fighter-exploit thing "make sense" in the game, because wizards have a structure they have to adhere to for "it's magic" to work. But if the wizard's structure doesn't make any more sense than "just because", that's not much of a hurdle. It's an arbitrary stricture, and as such any arbitrary stricture we choose to put on the fighter should do just as well.

The fighter forgets how to do the thing until he gets some rest and thinks about it again. There, now his structure makes as much sense as a wizard's.

Not at all. Courage and willpower are internal to the fighter. A fighter has control and self-awareness over his mental state. That's why it's different than the mage example.

 

[Fifth Element]

Not at all. Courage and willpower are internal to the fighter. A fighter has control and self-awareness over his mental state. That's why it's different than the mage example.

The wizard's knowledge and memory is not internal to him? Why does the wizard not have control and self-awareness over his own mental state?

You're saying that some unexplained thing wipes the wizard's memory, and that's fine. But if some unexplained thing wipes a fighter's willpower and courage, that's not?

It only seems different because of the way you've framed it. But you can frame the fighter thing in the same way as the wizard, or vice-versa, and you get the same result.

 

[MarkB]

Not at all. Courage and willpower are internal to the fighter. A fighter has control and self-awareness over his mental state. That's why it's different than the mage example.

That's not the same thing as them being an unlimited resource, or under his full control. People can't simply manufacture more courage and willpower as needed by just telling themselves to do so.

 

[Umbran]

That's not the same thing as them being an unlimited resource, or under his full control. People can't simply manufacture more courage and willpower as needed by just telling themselves to do so.

Reading "The Deed of Paksennarion" now - and, one of the major plot elements involves a character having their courage and willpower sapped for an extended period of time, so they cannot continue to fight. Written with symptoms disturbingly close to post-traumatic stress disorder.

 

[Underman]

The wizard's knowledge and memory is not internal to him? Why does the wizard not have control and self-awareness over his own mental state?

Sure, like an accident that causes brain damage that wipes the victim's short term memory. It doesn't matter what the victim thinks of it, because an external quantifiable process (ie., brain damage) is responsible for it, and even as the victim is self-aware of this, the process continues unabated.

Maybe spell memory is different than regular memory. Maybe the spell runes appear in the mage's mind's eye, a lot like a HUD. Once the HUD/spell runes are gone, you can't activate that spell anymore, even if you remember (with normal memory) what the spell runes are. The ritual of spell memorization brings up the active HUD again.

However it works, the most important point for me is that the process is external to the mage.

You're saying that some unexplained thing wipes the wizard's memory, and that's fine. But if some unexplained thing wipes a fighter's willpower and courage, that's not?

What process wipes a fighter's willpower and courage such that he can continue to do many great things all day but not that one specific thing that he wants to do sooooooooooo badly. Is it a fey boon perhaps or other charm -- something that certain people specifically were against?

It only seems different because of the way you've framed it. But you can frame the fighter thing in the same way as the wizard, or vice-versa, and you get the same result.

It seems different because those who want a fighter to do mythic exploits were very clear that they wanted it to be non-magical and sourced from the fighter's own wellspring of superhuman ability, courage, willpower, etc. The fighter is self-aware of his own mental state. If I'm roleplaying the fighter, I don't get it, because I don't see how the fighter would get it.

 

[billd91]

Yet in 4E, when a fighter "forgets" how to do a maneuver after using it, the game is vilified for it.

A wizard has cast this spell every day for the past two years, and yet he keeps forgetting how to cast it, even after just casting it. Surely if you've just done the thing, you're more likely to remember how to do that thing?

There are demands that the fighter-exploit thing "make sense" in the game, because wizards have a structure they have to adhere to for "it's magic" to work. But if the wizard's structure doesn't make any more sense than "just because", that's not much of a hurdle. It's an arbitrary stricture, and as such any arbitrary stricture we choose to put on the fighter should do just as well.

The fighter forgets how to do the thing until he gets some rest and thinks about it again. There, now his structure makes as much sense as a wizard's.

The difference is that magic doesn't really exist. Any game (or literary source) that includes magic can set its own rules for its use as there is no reality to simulate. That's why an arbitrary, game-oriented structure can work.
Contrast that with combat that people have been engaging in for thousands of years. The arbitrary spell-casting structure doesn't work as well because we do have a reality to inform our expectations.

 

[Underman]

That's not the same thing as them being an unlimited resource, or under his full control. People can't simply manufacture more courage and willpower as needed by just telling themselves to do so.

Nor does anyone have the courage and willpower to do one specific task exactly once per day, but retain the courage and willpower to do other equally impressive tasks that same day.

 

[SKyOdin]

I know why the mage can cast a fireball spell once per day, he has the spell recipe for it, he forgets the recipe after casting, and needs a full rest to restore it. The mage may not understand why this works, he just know that it does. That's an external process, what the mage thinks about the process is irrelevant.

And have you ever stopped to think about how that magic actually does work? Even if it isn't something the wizard needs to think about, how magic works is a really critical question for any fantasy setting.

I have seen plenty of fantasy settings that go into a great deal of depth for how their magic systems work. For example, WotC's other big property, Magic: the Gathering, has a fairly well-detailed and explained magic system. Mana is the fundamental building block of reality and comes in five flavors. By drawing upon sources of mana found in the land, mages can shape that mana to cast spells.

For an example from a completely different genre, the Naruto manga/anime has a very detailed magic system. The source of all powers is chakra, the mix of mental and physical energy within the body. This chakra flows through a complex network within the body. Chakra can be used for three different kinds of powers: taijutsu (purely physical arts), genjutsu (mental illusions caused by sensory stimulus), and ninjutsu (magical conjuration and evocation). Furthermore, chakra comes in five "natures", based on elemental properties: fire, water, wind, earth, and lightning. Everyone has a natural disposition towards one of the five natures, and even the very best masters will usually only master two or three. By manipulating chakra and the natures through special techniques and hand-signs, it is possible to produce everything from super-human punches to teleportation and summoning arts.

That is a well-explained and robust magical system. It explains both the source of power the magic is coming from, and how a magic user uses it.

D&D doesn't do this. D&D magic works on the principle of: "don't think too hard about it." Since all supernatural powers in D&D already fall under the purview of "don't think too hard about it", why can't we apply that logic to martial stuff as well?

 

[Fifth Element]

Maybe spell memory is different than regular memory.

Perhaps "leaping the ocean" willpower and courage is different from "cleaving the mountain" willpower and courage.

Contrast that with combat that people have been engaging in for thousands of years. The arbitrary spell-casting structure doesn't work as well because we do have a reality to inform our expectations.

People have been fighting dragons and vampires and giants for thousands of years?