When does D&D stop being D&D?

[PinkRose]

Sacred cows are what some call them. But D&D is what I call it.
There are certain things that are D&D. Pure and simple.
Daily powers are D&D. Vancian or AEDU.
Clerics, Fighters, Wizards & Rogues are D&D.
Hit Points are D&D.
AC is D&D.

Why is it that people want to remove or change these things so much that D&D isn't D&D anymore?

Things that we've lost along the way:
Attack matrixes.
THAC0.
Save vs Rod, et al.
WP & NWP, though they've morphed into skills.
Percentile dice.
Healing Surges.

I hear people wanting to completely change D&D.
"I want classless D&D". Isn't that what GURPS does?

D&D isn't just Fantasy Roleplaying to me. It's very specific and yet general at the same time.

I understand "a better game" argument. But then it's a different game, yes?
Can it be classless?
Can you remove HP & AC?
Can you remove dice? (Fifth Age was bizarre IMO)

What makes D&D D&D?

 

[frankthedm]

There are certain things that are D&D. Pure and simple.

Attack matrixes.
THAC0.
Save vs Rod, et al.

Yep.

 

[PinkRose]

Did you stop playing D&D when Attack Matrixes were removed?
Did you feel the last few editions weren't D&D?

 

[SKyOdin]

What makes D&D, D&D, is the combination of the race/class/level character creation, with a heroic fantasy world-view.

I think the most fundamental aspect of D&D is the ability to describe your character as a level 13 human paladin, or as a level 6 warforged assassin, or what-have-you. The exact level ranges, race lists, and class lists are perfectly open to adjustment, but the scheme is important.

As such, D&D is a game where a team is made up of characters with wildly different, yet complimentary backgrounds and skill-sets, where the party grows significantly stronger over time. Furthermore, this progression of strength is done against a fantasy backdrop where the main characters are significant heroes who fight against ever more powerful monsters and villains.

Following after that, ability scores are also a significant part of D&D's history, but I classify them as a secondary priority because they are so potentially problematic. I would classify hit points and rolling a d20 as important, but still secondary game elements as well.

Most other elements are open game for the sacred cow hunters.

 

[Mercule]

I'm probably going to regret participating in a "what is D&D" conversation, but here goes:

Over the years, I've come to understand that everyone has sacred cows, but they don't have the same sacred cows. For example, I think 3-18 ability scores is part of the definition. The 3e level increases made me a bit wary, and the 4e stats drove me up a wall. The game should handle a variety of races, but should be human-centric (i.e. humans don't get stat modifiers). D&D is a class/level system and the idea of either getting rid of classes or just de-emphasizing them in favor of skills and feats being the focus would bother me.

I'm also still smarting about rangers losing access to magic-user spells.

The "loss" of THAC0 doesn't bother me because BAB is just a cleaner way of presenting the same information. Actually, I remember when THAC0 was added. I thought (and still think) the acronym sounds stupid, and was a bit irritated that the tables were taken out of the DMG (it's grown on me), so I get a chuckle out of the notion that THAC0 even could be a sacred cow.

The change in saves from Breath Weapon, et al, to R/F/W was a bit odd, but it just seemed like a cleaned up version of what went before. Someone shoots a fireball at you, so you roll a d20 to see if you can avoid half -- it gets easier as you gain levels. Turning them into defenses actually worked pretty well, but didn't feel right, to me.

Skills didn't really exist, originally, and it was regular fodder for house rules or Dragon articles. The NWP were an aborted attempt and I never really cared for them. While I think 3e and 4e both had some good ideas for skills, neither version ever really grabbed me as "right". With the exception of "roll a d20, higher is better", I don't really see a cow, there.

I like percentile dice, but they were never used for any major mechanics I can think of. Okay, magic resistance, but the d20 just seems like a refinement. Random tables should be percentile, though.

Healing surges are a 4e addition. I don't even see the concept as being a permanent addition. If it is, it's as pure as 1e psionics or 2e NWP.

In answer to your specific questions:

No, it can't be classless. It also can't be human-only (in the core books, settings should use what works for them). Nor can you remove humans as the anchor (the prior caveat does not apply).

I don't think you can remove HP and AC. It might work, but I think it'd change it too much.

D&D has its origins in wargaming. Dice are required for task resolution. A good GM may ignore them, occasionally, but the rules are based around dice.

 

[PinkRose]

Great replies. Thanks so far.
I missed ability scores in my list of what makes D&D.

And SkyOdin, I particularly liked your statement.

the combination of the race/class/level character creation, with a heroic fantasy world-view

but don't you think it takes more than that? Aren't there quite a few games that are fantasy race/class/levels?

 

[Harlock]

System has a lot to do with it for sure, but D&D is a feel for me. If you change too much, the feeling is lost. When I spend as much time rolling or waiting for others to roll as I do on roleplay interactions, the feeling is lost. When I have to be referred to a long list of possible actions to take instead of merely describing what I want to do and letting the DM decide a chance to succeed and rolling a die, I lose that feeling. When it strives to be too real, it ceases to be D&D to me. When the mechanics try to usurp roleplaying opportunities, it no longer feels like D&D to me. When the system seems to support a specific playstyle and setting, it just isn't D&D to me.

I started playing D&D because of how limitless the possibilities were. The more "the system" tries to encroach on possibilities and introduce limits, it's not D&D for me. I have found that throughout my life, my needs and feelings have changed. As always, like what you play and play what you like!

 

[Remathilis]

This is my list of things I consider "D&D". You don't need all of it (Basic still D&D despite only having 3 alignments) but I think going forward its what any D&D game should have.

Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma
Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Halfling, Human, Half-elf
Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Bard, Paladin, Druid, Ranger
Lawful, Good, Chaotic, Evil and Neutral
Vancian Magic (spell slots, 1-9th level)
Armor Class, Hit Points, Saving Throws
Turn Undead
Cure Light Wounds, Fireball, Magic Missile, Teleport, Raise Dead, Protection from Evil
Goblinoids, Kobolds, Orcs, Undead, Multi-colored Dragons, Beholders, Drow, Mindflayers, and Fiends
Longswords, Platemail, 10' poles, torches, greataxes, studded leather, and lots and lots of rope.
+1 weapons, potions of healing, rings of protection, cursed items, and intelligent blades

That is what D&D is. Everything else is delicious gravy.

 

[Minigiant]

D&D is a game where a few strange characters with different and unique abilities can go to the places normal folk won't in hopes of treasure and fears of running into a dragon.

This means:
Classes with unique and exclusive features
Daily Magic
Magic split into at least arcane and divine portions
At least one class getting all weapon and armor use
Ability scores that be can be generated by three rolls of a d6 plus some modifier
AC that by default blocks all damage
Hit points
Dragons
Dungeons

 

[Bobbum Man]

Vancian Magic (spell slots, 1-9th level)

Vancian magic sure.

Spell slots sure.

Spell levels 1-9? Naw. The game would be better off without 9 subtly different versions of "Cure X Wounds" and "X of Fiery Unpleasantness".