D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Crazy Jerome]

So Underman, I presume from that last answer that you'd be ok with Dadelus and Icarus flying, right? That is, fighters can't fly cause fighters got no wings. You find a way to strap some wings on him, he can flap 'em and get lift. We won't get too deep into that business of how baby birds need a little time to get it all straightened out.

I don't mind a light gloss of fairy tale logic to explain how things work, but if the explanation keeps coming out as, "And Joe over here gets nothing," then I start to get suspicious.

 

[Underman]

So Underman, I presume from that last answer that you'd be ok with Dadelus and Icarus flying, right? That is, fighters can't fly cause fighters got no wings. You find a way to strap some wings on him, he can flap 'em and get lift. We won't get too deep into that business of how baby birds need a little time to get it all straightened out.

Good question. Is that part of the mythic dream logic that I have to worry about being transplanted into the D&D genre vs the pseudo-rationality that I have insisted actually exist in D&D?

I don't mind a light gloss of fairy tale logic to explain how things work, but if the explanation keeps coming out as, "And Joe over here gets nothing," then I start to get suspicious.

Just because I criticize what I think is a lack of integrity behind certain arguments for mythical fighters or defend myself in doing so, you should very well know from the history of my posts that I never said "Joe over here gets nothing" (in case that was directed at me, I know you tend to make general comments about unnamed people there).

 

[JamesonCourage]

No, it's more like "If fighters cannot be impossible then why is it okay for other non-magical things, like giants, to be impossible?"

Differing amounts of suspension of disbelief. That's why.

Personally, I can go pretty far. I can have a guy being so supernaturally strong that he can try to grapple a dragon. I'm okay with someone consistently jumping down 40 feet and taking no damage (deliberate jump, rolling at the bottom, but still).

But, for whatever reason, I get iffy if the guy can jump 75 feet up. Or if he can swim up a waterfall. Or cut a mountain in half.

Are both sets, above, impossible? Sure. Equally impossible? I guess so, yes. But, still, I'm pretty much okay with the former, and not so much with the latter. Why is that? Just my personal take on suspension of disbelief. When I accept "fantasy" I accept "better than reality" in my characters, but when I accept "fantasy" I don't necessarily open the floodgates to all forms of fantasy, mythic and non-mythic alike.

Essentially, just because I allow The Others (the White Walkers) in my game, it doesn't mean I'm okay with a teleporting Rand going around erasing armies from existing. One I'm okay with, the other makes me roll my eyes. I can watch the Lord of the Rings movies and be okay with Strider tossing Gimli, but when I see Legolas, I roll my eyes. I can accept Achilles being immune to damage except for his heel, but when I see most fight scenes in Crouching Tiger, I roll my eyes.

Why is that? It's just preference. There's just a personal line that people have. So, that's why it's okay for me to have non-magical giants and dragons in my game, but not mountain-cutting. That's why I'm okay with jumping down 40 feet, but not an "incredible anime-esque leaping ability." Being as good as Batman (as compared to basically any anime ninja).

Really, this is why. People will come up with rationales to match their preference. See the Element Air argument in Underman's post a page back. It's just preference, and with fantasy, people can "logic" their fantasy to match what they want ("this works because of X, while C doesn't work because X, Y, or Z doesn't allow it"). Trying to get someone to accept more fantasy (or most fantasy) into their game because they've accepted some already will really only work so far as you don't exceed their preferences. Past that, you've probably made them roll their eyes ("once per day I can destroy the sun!"). As always, play what you like

 

[Mallus]

It's intuitive to me that the fighter with unexplained martial powers faces a completely different challenge in terms of suspension of disbelief. Asking why dragons fly isn't a concern for me. Asking why a fighter PC (that I have to roleplay or share a story with) has the courage and will to leap 500 ft once a day but doesn't have the courage and will to do something equally impressive does have that problem.

The difference seems to be: you are willing to invent BS rationalizations to justify giants and flying dragons, but you are unwilling to invent the same kind of BS rationalizations for a PC fighter who wants to indulge in periodic mountain-jumping (or flinging, or cleaving in twain).

Because, for some reason, PC fighters need to be free of BS justifications for their abilities (with the exception of hit points).

This is what I intuit. I guess it all, somewhat predictably, boils down to taste, eh?

One things I'd like to add: a lot of this stems from D&D having so many sources inform it's (default) fiction.

Conan belongs in D&D.

So does Aragorn.

And Bilbo.

And Hercules.

And Cuchulain.

And John Carter of Mars.

And the Five Deadly Venons.

And Jedi (with their serial numbers filed off).

And robots.

And space aliens.

And talking animals cf. lynx, giant, AD&D MM.

And so on.

All of this sh*t establishes the context in which typical D&D characters operate.

 

[Fifth Element]

Done. Giants are not impossible after all.

Giants are also impossible because their frames would not be able to support their weight. Does knowing that now violate your suspension of disbelief again?

Fighters mundanely chopping mountains can still be impossible.

Asking why a fighter PC (that I have to roleplay or share a story with) has the courage and will to leap 500 ft once a day but doesn't have the courage and will to do something equally impressive does have that problem.

And back to the excluded middle.

 

[Underman]

The difference seems to be: you are willing to invent BS rationalizations to justify giants and flying dragons, but you are unwilling to invent the same kind of BS rationalizations for a PC fighter who wants to indulge in periodic mountain-jumping (or flinging, or cleaving in twain).

No.

I don't care about BSing rationalizations about giants and flying dragons.

I care about other people seemingly criticizing my preferences with BS about why I can't accept X and Y when X and Y have different qualities that intuitively for me elicit different perspectives.

I and others have tried to invent rationalizations for why fighters are powerful, some of which I like very much. I also suggested the action points pool so that there isn't a stupidly arbitrary reason for doing X once per day but not doing Y once per day where X = Y in terms of requiring courage and will.

I also wrote beforehand that I'm perfectly happy to have mythic warriors chopping mountains in half if I'm playing a consistently mythic campaign (but I remain convinced that the traditional D&D genre is not a mythic one and I have through great time and effort to explain why), and that I'm OK with mythic qualities in the game as long as they're somehow tagged as such.

All of the above, I feel is a lot more meeting halfway than those who remain entrenched on the other side of things and just try to poke random holes with weird pointy sticks.

 

[Underman]

Giants are also impossible because their frames would not be able to support their weight. Does knowing that now violate your suspension of disbelief again?

Heard of dinosaurs? Did Isaac Newton enter D&D and ruin it for everyone?

Asking why a fighter PC (that I have to roleplay or share a story with) has the courage and will to leap 500 ft once a day but doesn't have the courage and will to do something equally impressive does have that problem.

And back to the excluded middle.

I think you're confusing "problem" with some sort of instant exclusion. A problem is not a dead end; a problem is an obstacle, a challenge, and maybe even an opportunity to make a better game for everyone.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Just because I criticize what I think is a lack of integrity behind certain arguments for mythical fighters or defend myself in doing so, you should very well know from the history of my posts that I never said "Joe over here gets nothing" (in case that was directed at me, I know you tend to make general comments about unnamed people there).

No, it was more where your post got me thinking. As soon as you started the bit about elemental air and lift, I thought of the various people that had tried to make wings, and that made me think of Icarus. Having gone that far, it wasn't much of a jump in my scattered brain to Epimetheus and the gifts of the gods, with "Joe the Fighter" in the role of man.

"And the wizard is granted backstage access into the cosmic secrets of the universe."

Wizard: Cool. Free pass!

"Thus the cleric has the ear of the gods."

Cleric: As long as it stops there, I'm fine with that. Tell Zeus to keep his paws to himself, though.

"Rogue--step up to accept supreme cleverness and lithness."

Rogue: Hmm, I'm seeing that "private property" is kind of a flexible concept here ...

"Fighter ..."

Fighter: Yes?

" ... um, sorry, we are experiencing technical difficulties ..."

Fighter: What tha?

" (muted talk in the background) ...Yes, yes, Ahem. Fighter , you will hit things with big sticks and withstand such blows mightily."

Fighter: Alright! (Runs off happily to get a big stick.)

"It's the concussions. After awhile, they don't care anymore."

Joe the Fighter: "Couldn't I have fire or something? Maybe a dash of poison to put on the arrows? Utility belt?

Epimetheus: "Hey buddy, let's talk after the ceremony, aight?"

 

[Remathilis]

JamesCourage hit the nail on the head for me.

I want high level fighter's to be Batman; peak human in endurance, strength, and agility and able to do things most people would kill themselves trying to. I don't want them to be Superman; an all powerful entity who exceeds man in all ways. When Batman "flies", he uses grappling hooks and a cape glider to zip and weave through the sky. When Superman flies, gravity gives way to his alien power. When Batman sees though walls, its due to high tech abilities in his cowl, Superman uses his magic X-ray vision. Batman fights thugs by dodging bullets (maybe deflecting a shot with his armor) and uses his martial arts training to defeat them. Superman takes the shots point-blank in the chest and then punches them with Super-strength. I can buy someone fighting dragons to become Batman, I can't buy them becoming Superman.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Heard of dinosaurs? Did Isaac Newton enter D&D and ruin it for everyone?

Herd of dinosaurs. That's be pretty mythic, in kind of a primitive way.

(with insincere apologies to Rolf the Dog, Miss Piggy, Janice and the Vet Hospital skits)