Figuring Out Combat Superiority

[BobTheNob]

Keep in mind, who sais there needs to be an increase every level?

 

[Stormonu]

Keep in mind, who sais there needs to be an increase every level?

I certainly agree (actually); in 3E/4E for example, the rogue's backstab didn't increase every level.

Looking at that chart I made, I'd almost rather you only get an occasional increase when the the dice are pretty much the same - say 1st (1d4), 2nd (1d6), 3rd (1d8), 5th (which might be 2d6), 7th (2d8), 9th (3d6), 12th (4d6), 14th (which might be 4d8), 16th (which might be 5d6), 18th (say, 5d8), and 20th (which might be 6d6).

 

[pemerton]

14th (which might be 4d8), 16th (which might be 5d6), 18th (say, 5d8), and 20th (which might be 6d6).

4d8 is better than 5d6 as far as damage (but not tokens) is concerned. Likewise 5d8 compared to 6d6.

Given that, in the era of bounded accuracy, damage and hit point growth is where it's at, I would be surprised if they stepped the die size down: to maintain some sort of equivalence over time, you want the die size to stay the same or grow, as the number of dice also grows.

I'm guessing 1d4 at 1st, 1d6 at 3rd, 2d6 at 5th. 1d6 at 3rd fits with the +1 to damage at 3rd level mentioned on the playtest fighter sheet.

I'll extrapolate from there to 2d8 at 7th, 3d8 at 9th, 3d10 at 11th, 4d10 at 13th, 4d12 at 15th, 5d12 at 17th, 6d12 at 19th.

Applied as damage, the average at each level is:

1 (2.5)
3 (3.5)
5 (7)
7 (9)
9 (13.5)
11 (16.5)
13 (22)
15 (26)
17 (32.5)
19 (39)

Assuming the rogue is getting one sneak attack die per level (as the playtest suggests), then the fighter never comes close to the rogue - even at 19th, when the fighter is peaking at an average of +2 damage per level, the rogue is getting +3.5 (ie 1d6) per level.

 

[Vikingkingq]

- Would you have to spend a die for special manuevers like Trip, Bull Rush, Disarm and the like? I don't really like this, but if spending the die let you perform the maneuver and still deal regular weapon damage as well (and other classes would just do the maneuver but no damage), that might be a better option.

No. These manuevers are more advanced. Trip, grapple, etc. are covered under the narrative and tactical modules that anyone can use.

 

[fba827]

Keep in mind, who sais there needs to be an increase every level?

Agreed.

Judging by the way the playtest characters were done, some levels were a bump in "class" abilities and some levels were a bump in "theme" abilities.

So if they are keeping that pattern of progression, and if they are considering combat superiority a class thing, then it will be every other(?) level for the increase.

 

[Kraydak]

Problem: Tracking the expenditure of 6 dice, round after round, is tricky. Sure, you could set up dice in front of you, but they'll be knocked around, or you'll forget to refresh, or the guy who just dropped a Horrid Wilting will pick up all your nicely arranged d8s.
Solution: Certainly no more than 4 dice in the pool, and 4 is probably pushing it. Solution only to be implemented if there is actual playtesting of mid-high levels. This probably actually means that we need to have sets of sets of dice, rather than just sets of dice (rather than having 12d6, you have 4 times 3d6).

Problem: IF multiclassing is done a la 3e, then being able to spend dice on extra actions/attacks can be balanced for low level fighters. It can be balanced for high level fighters through *really* big die sizes and putting sets of dice as a "die" (say, 4 sets of 4d10 or something). It cannot be balanced for high level non-fighters splashing fighter (because they are now spending 1d4 for an effect that is balanced for a Fighter at 4d10).
Solution: Either all effects depend on the size of a die-set (no extra attacks, and really, pretty limited options honestly) or all effects that are independent of the size of a die-set require significant investment in Fighter levels.

Problem: Rolling 10d6 once/fight (Fireball) isn't that big a hassle. Rolling 6d6 every round, in different combinations, along side dice of other sizes, is a hassle.
Solution: Forget dice, spread out "dice" in units of 5 (because adding units of 5 is relatively easy). So at level 1 you get 1 packet of 5. By level 5, that becomes two packets of 5, or maybe 1 packet of 5 and 1 packet of 10. Yes, dice are more visceral. Unfortunately, in practice, they'll be, at best, hovering at the edge of unplayable at high level.

Problem: Only 1 reaction per round.
Solution: No abilities that trigger out of your round, or Fighter Combat Superiority ignores the limit. Not that big a deal really.

Problem: If the dice pool refreshes at the start of your round, then any dice that get saved for out-of-action abilities that don't get triggered are lost.
Solution: Refresh the pool at the END of your round. Simple.

 

[Oldtimer]

Riposte: When an ally misses you in melee, use one CS die to immediately counterattack.

Wouldn't that be "When an enemy misses you in melee, ..."?

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Many people seem to be in favour of recovering dice at the end of your turn. Do you hate having to gamble with resources that badly? If you're only allowed one reaction anyway then you'll lose one dice at most anyway..

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Wouldn't that be "When an enemy misses you in melee, ..."?

Your name is oldtimer and you are opposed to inter-party fights like in the good ol' days?

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

I could see the combat superiority progression being like this for the first 10 levels:

Level 1 : 1d4 2.5
Level 2 : 1d6 3.5
Level 3 : 1d8 4.5
Level 4 : 2d4 5
Level 5 : 2d6 7
Level 6 : 2d8 9
Level 7 : 3d6 10.5
Level 8 : 3d8 13.5
Level 9 : 4d6 14
Level 10: 4d8 18