Can someoone explain the "Daily Hate" for me?

[Underman]

Maybe not in the real world, but this is a fantasy world that we're talking about. I'm not going to talk about overtly magical things like dragons and fireballs. It's a world that has apparently non-magical creatures that shouldn't exist in the real world - things like giant insects, hill giants and purple worms. So why not apparently non-magical martial daily abilities, as well?

Because it doesn't follow that
a) D&D world has magical things
b) fighters are in the D&D world
c) therefore fighters have muscles that magically become tired independently
d) i want (c) to be true soooooooo badly because of the Daily mechanic that I'll say anything to justify it

I dislike it.. a whole lot. I think it's lame and uncompelling enough that it completely fails to convince players who currently dislike dailies (for in-game as well as metagame reasons).

 

[Tony Vargas]

So, we're getting deep into 'realism,' here? How realistic is it that reciting a set formula that you memorized makes you instantly forget it forever? Not very. Realism is bunk, it has no place in fantasy. Even if we /were/ talking some kind of martial-arts system in some hypothetical 4e modern game, it'd still likely be heroic, and modeling some action-movie-like genre, rather than RL.

In fiction, protagonists pull improbable or even impossible-seeming maneuvers out of no where, once in a while, when it's dramatic. You could model that by making such maneuvers have a 5% chance of success, but what you'd get is a game that fails to model the genre most of the time. Daily powers are a clumsy and imbalancing mechanism, but they can deliver heroes that pull of spectacular things at dramatic moments fairly dependably. If they're appropriate for any sort of hero in a given RPG, they're appropriate for all of 'em. Though, again "clumsy & immbalancing," I wouldn't mind seeing them go, entirely.

 

[Underman]

Logically, all that implies is that you have never pulled off anything that resembles a martial daily ability.

Logically, you should try martial arts again for several years before you decide what its logical.

And you carry that force and consistency of logic with you wherever you go, including the idea that fighters have muscles in D&D that magically get tired independently.

All I need is some semi-plausible explanation, and ...

It's not even semi-plausible to me.

... there it is! Specific muscles can get injured or tired in the real world and make it impossible for real-world characters to repeat actions, either at all or at the same level of efficiency.

Whoa there. After your fighter does a Flying Roundhouse Kick, does he get the Limp condition? No. Can he do another daily like the Flying Side Kick. Yes. Is this anything like doing a hundred push ups that isolate certain muscles? No. Does this make any sense? No.

 

[FireLance]

Logically, you should try martial arts again for several years before you decide what its logical.

No, logically in the sense that "I have never seen a black swan, therefore they do not exist" is not a logical argument.

Similarly, if you have never pulled off a maneuver that made you so tired that you could not do it again, you cannot logically conclude on the basis of that alone that martial daily abilities do not exist. Your conclusion might actually be true (and, as I mentioned, is probably true in the real world) but it does not follow logically from your premise.

But maybe I have been using the word "logically" a little too precisely. It's an unfortunate side-effect of playing D&D for years.

It's not even semi-plausible to me.

...

Whoa there. After your fighter does a Flying Roundhouse Kick, does he get the Limp condition? No. Can he do another daily like the Flying Side Kick. Yes. Is this anything like doing a hundred push ups that isolate certain muscles? No. Does this make any sense? No.

Well, I'm only describing what works and makes sense for me. If it helps anyone else come to accept martial daily abilities, then great! If not, it's no biggie. It's not like I desperately need everyone to agree with me.

Because it doesn't follow that
a) D&D world has magical things
b) fighters are in the D&D world
c) therefore fighters have muscles that magically become tired independently
d) i want (c) to be true soooooooo badly because of the Daily mechanic that I'll say anything to justify it

I dislike it.. a whole lot. I think it's lame and uncompelling enough that it completely fails to convince players who currently dislike dailies (for in-game as well as metagame reasons).

Are you sure you aren't protesting a little too much?

 

[Underman]

No, logically in the sense that "I have never seen a black swan, therefore they do not exist" is not a logical argument.
<snip>
But maybe I have been using the world "logically" too precisely.

OK, then logically (colloquial sense) experience is more relevant than speculation towards drawing a conclusion.

Similarly, if you have never pulled off a maneuver that made you so tired that you could not do it again, you cannot logically conclude on the basis of that alone that martial daily abilities do not exist. Your conclusion might actually be true (and, as I mentioned, is probably true in the real world) but it does not follow logically from your premise.

Ya, that level of logic is probably a red herring and unhelpful and frustrating, to be honest.

Are you sure you aren't protesting a little too much?

Not in a thread asking to explain about 'Daily Hate' it isn't. This isn't the 'Daily Love' thread

 

[FireLance]

OK, then logically (colloquial sense) experience is more relevant than speculation towards drawing a conclusion.

Yes - in the real world. And one of the reasons why I play D&D is to reject reality and replace it with my own.

Not in a thread asking to explain about 'Daily Hate' it isn't. This isn't the 'Daily Love' thread

Touche.

 

[Underman]

Yes - in the real world. And one of the reasons why I play D&D is to reject reality and replace it with my own.

Not to harp on you, but then why did you reference "67 ways to throw an opponent" by the very real-life Kodokan Institute in order to be "fairly sure that not all of them would use the same set of muscles" in order to alleviate Lord Mhoram's concern about "why is he too tired for one, but not the other"? Especially since you reject reality anyway, isn't that just cherrypicking with other people?

 

[FireLance]

Not to harp on you, but then why did you reference "67 ways to throw an opponent" by the very real-life Kodokan Institute in order to be "fairly sure that not all of them would use the same set of muscles" in order to alleviate Lord Mhoram's concern about "why is he too tired for one, but not the other"? Especially since you reject reality anyway, isn't that just cherrypicking with other people?

It's the difference between reality and plausibility, or the difference between a factual biography and a novel. One is actually true down to the last detail, but the other just needs to contain enough truth that you can accept the parts that aren't real.

 

[Underman]

It's the difference between reality and plausibility, or the difference between a factual biography and a novel. One is actually true down to the last detail, but the other just needs to contain enough truth that you can accept the parts that aren't real.

I'm not sure it's as analagou as you imply. You weren't trying to sell a novel to Lord Mhoram ("imagine a fantasy world where..."), you were trying to sell a biography ("the Kodokan Institute details 67 ways..."). That is, I think you addressed Lord Mhoram on real-life terms, and then only retreated to fantasy mea-culpa after those real-life assumptions were challenged and rightfully so. (Nothing personal, I think that's quite common here)

 

[Neonchameleon]

Whoa there. After your fighter does a Flying Roundhouse Kick, does he get the Limp condition? No. Can he do another daily like the Flying Side Kick. Yes. Is this anything like doing a hundred push ups that isolate certain muscles? No. Does this make any sense? No.

When a fighter is down to one single individual hit point meaning that he is very badly battered, does he gain one single negative condition that impedes him in any way from taking a hit? No. Can he climb every mountain, ford every stream, and walk five hundred miles then walk five hundred more at precisely the same rate he would if he was at perfect health despite having lost 99% of his hit points? As long as he doesn't fall down and break his crown...

Does that make any less sense than your issue here?

D&D is and has always been a cinematic game that doesn't sweat the small stuff and lets the PCs be larger than life.

And I need limited use powers for fighters, as I say, so that I can have the outcomes matching real life and not being completely spamtastic. Fighter dailies give me cinematic outputs - the fighter reaching deep within himself when the chips are down.

(They shouldn't happen once per day - but I'm an advocate of limited extended rests anyway).