Assassins: Is Neutral okay?

[N'raac]

No biggie, delericho.

What this whole issue really comes down to is whether PrC's are grab bag assortments of mechanics to be used to optimize my character as I see fit, or whether they are linked to the campaign world, such that they carry requirements and results beyond simple mechanics.

Under the Assassin as written, there is clearly an organization. They don't admit members until they kill a target just because the organization says to. Presumably there are advantages to membership (contacts, information, perhaps access to poisons and other assassination tools, etc.) and responsibilities (you get assignments, requests from higher ups, assigned novices to train, etc.).

 

[Remus Lupin]

If I had my druthers, I'd say that Assassins need to be "Any non-good," but not necessarily evil. It's possible, by my lights, for someone in a D&D context to be a ruthless killer for hire, but not evil in metaphysical sense. At the same time, I would contend that it's also not possible for such a character to be good in the metaphysical sense.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I'd allow neutral assassins in my game world. To me a neutral assassin is someone who has no feelings on the matter of who he kills. It's just a job to him and he does it with a very professional manner. Sure, there are a lot of evil assassins out there and the majority of them may be evil by the strictest sense of the word, but I see room for the uncaring individual who does not take feelings into account when doing his job.

There are plenty of reasons and alignments to an assassin:

He could be motivated by good to kill an evil political figure or overlord, he could be motivated by coin to kill a rich merchant who has a rival with enough money to buy the his services, or he could be an evil bastard who kills only for the pleasure of killing and seeing his victims suffer.

I'm sure others will disagree with me and that's their prerogative, but in my world that's how I operate because it isn't always just black and white, there are shades of grey and an assassin can be one of those shades of grey.

 

[Systole]

Murder is basically an evil act. A person who is not choosy about who he murders is evil. A person who is extremely choosy about murdering only the guilty might be neutral, but it's a step too far to call it good.

Personally, I would leave it on the books that assassins being evil by default. If a PC can come up with a very valid reason for a neutral assassin, I would invoke Rule Zero then and allow it. But I wouldn't broaden assassins to non-good from the get-go. I want to see you work for it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Murder is basically an evil act. A person who is not choosy about who he murders is evil. A person who is extremely choosy about murdering only the guilty might be neutral, but it's a step too far to call it good.

Personally, I would leave it on the books that assassins being evil by default. If a PC can come up with a very valid reason for a neutral assassin, I would invoke Rule Zero then and allow it. But I wouldn't broaden assassins to non-good from the get-go. I want to see you work for it.

This says it for me pretty well, however I'd be open to creating some old ex-assassin hermit who might teach the exact same abilities without requiring the PC to actually be an assassin.

I am open to using PrC's as "bundles of abilities," but only allow one PrC per character. If you want to be a rogue/assassin mechanically but a jolly swashbuckling adventurer in-character, works for me.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I always allow N Assassins in my DnD, as the class is NOT tied to actual assassinations. It is a certain set of skills, you don't have to do hits for random punters for money. I remember a White Dwarf article describing Robin Hood as an Assassin (1E), the skills he needed were very much an Assassin but he was using them to infiltrate a keep and take out guards. Not do hits for money.

 

[gamerprinter]

I hear ya, Mach1.9pants, but...

Assassin skills, by the prestige class, includes Poison Use which though could be use for food-tasting is otherwise not very applicable to non assassination skills, also Death Attack/True Death/Quiet Death/Swift Death and Angel of Death are all class features that only involve assassinations. An assassin who is using his skills for only stealth is not using half the skills available to him.

There are plenty of other stealth based classes, other than assassin that is far more useful in non-assassination assignments.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I'll open another can of worms here, but to me the assassin is no different than any other class in the game. He kills based on his motivations just like any other class. If killing is evil by some people's standards on the forums and the act of killing is evil and thus by that argument no class should be good when they kill something or someone. Just because an assassin does it w/o face to face combat if he has the chance doesn't make him any different than the 10th level Paladin who challenges the level 5 corrupt guard captain to combat, we know the outcome ahead of time here, the Captain is going to die quickly and w/o challenging the Paladin. In the end both killed someone, the motivations were different, but the outcome the same. The way they kill is different, but they still killed and in the case of the Paladin against the captain it still would amount to murder as the chances of the captain defending himself are pretty much nil.

 

[gamerprinter]

I don't think the issue is killing as evil, rather murder as evil. How do you determine murder from killing in game - simple, if your opponent is not in a state of combat it's murder. If the opponent unconscience (and you didin't cause the state on unconscienceness) and you're performing a coup de grace, that's murder. Or if your opponent is unaware that he is being attacked (he's not in combat) it's murder, and more probably assassination.

Assassination and killing is not even close to the same thing. Causing death is not the issue, how the death is caused and what were the circumstances is everything.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

I don't think the issue is killing as evil, rather murder as evil. How do you determine murder from killing in game - simple, if your opponent is not in a state of combat it's murder. If the opponent unconscience (and you didin't cause the state on unconscienceness) and you're performing a coup de grace, that's murder. Or if your opponent is unaware that he is being attacked (he's not in combat) it's murder, and more probably assassination.

Assassination and killing is not even close to the same thing. Causing death is not the issue, how the death is caused and what were the circumstances is everything.

Then this comes down to definitions: What constitutes murder, assassination, and killing?

Murder - Killing another (person usually) with malice aforethought, chararacterized by deliberation or premeditation. To slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

Kill - To inflict or cause death, to murder, to deprive of life in any manner.

Assassinate - To kill suddenly or secretively, especially a politically prominent person; murder premeditatedly and treacherously.

They are all the same, they refer back to each other with Murder being called Killing, Killing being called Murder, and Assassinating being called Killing and Murder.

They are the same, the only way you differentiate it is the reasoning behind it and whether it was premeditated or not. So any way you slice it (no pun intended), the in-game or in real life person you kill whether in face to face combat is still someone you killed, murdered, or assassinated.

In terms of a TTRPG, the characters are most of the time out to kill and loot stuff, it doesn't matter that they are killing an evil person or creature to do it, they are still murderers who have premeditated that they are going to this specific dungeon or wizard's tower to clear out and kill, murder or assassinate everything in their path to get the stuff (usually magical goodies).

We all know that if mechanically you can sneak up and coup de grace an Orc guard with a ranger or rogue you will do it, that is an assassination or murder, you thought it out, you planned it with your party (even if the Paladin is in the party he won't usually say no since he probably doesn't think of the Orc as a person, but rather an evil beast to be put down), and you executed the deed.

It's that simple to me. The assassin is just another class in the game that shouldn't be called evil just because his particular skill set is more attuned to silent take downs and killing from positions in the shadows, yeah he'd rather not get caught doing it and he is more cowardly than the fighter who will go toe-to-toe, but that's his preferred means to get the job done.