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Assassins: Is Neutral okay?

enrious

Registered User
Right, but I thought it may be enlightening to show James Jacob's explanation for why it's written as evil in Pathfinder and also that those who utilize non-evil ones have a case.

As an aside, but speaking of using ninjas as spies, as I recall you also make the case for them historically being essentially "special forces samurai" (I no doubt am missing nuance and would welcome correction on it) - in other words, they were mostly samurai themselves who simply at times practiced irregular warfare.

I think that such moral or ethical complexity is a wonderful option to have in a campaign (I do emphasize option), which is essentially my take on assassins in Pathfinder.
 

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gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
As an aside, but speaking of using ninjas as spies, as I recall you also make the case for them historically being essentially "special forces samurai" (I no doubt am missing nuance and would welcome correction on it) - in other words, they were mostly samurai themselves who simply at times practiced irregular warfare.

That's a close enough definition. I actually haven't got to my Way of the Shinobi supplement for my Kaidan setting (which would contain all ninja and other stealth specialized classes), yet, since we've got the campaign setting Kickstarter going - it will have to come after that is released.

I'd hoped we could fund the Player's Guide in this Kickstarter campaign (then I could avoid even creating the shinobi guide and put that information in the player's book), but realistically, I don't think we'll get that part funded.

The GM's guide is certain to get funded, since we're only 2 week into the Kickstarter and are already at 85% to goal.
 
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gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
While I know the D&D answer is "no," I personally feel the answer should be yes. I feel that way because not all gods are Lawful Good; as such, I feel a champion of a religion should have morals and ideals which are suited to the cause he or she chooses to champion.

I do see and plan to one day write up something for a Templar archetype for Paladin that is not Lawful Good, my problem has always been how best to replace Smite. Perhaps Smite the Guilty? It might even be better to create an alternate class, rather than archetype, since paladin is too defined with too long of a history in the game, to be other the LG.

How would snipers fit into this idea?

Against standard military targets, including officers? Perfectly acceptable. But to target a specific commander, that's assassination. I see enemy sniping and specific target sniping as 2 different things.

Long range missile strikes?

It would mean that I was at the wrong gaming table - anything more modern than the Renaissance is a game that I don't care for.
 

enrious

Registered User
I do see and plan to one day write up something for a Templar archetype for Paladin that is not Lawful Good, my problem has always been how best to replace Smite. Perhaps Smite the Guilty? It might even be better to create an alternate class, rather than archetype, since paladin is too defined with too long of a history in the game, to be other the LG.

Personally, I find that Paladin = LG to be so embedded into the D&D experience (and to be fair, one that I share) that for my own campaign world I've utilized Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous concept of Holy Warrior for anything not supposed to be a LG paragon of Virtue and the Holy Church. In other words, Paladin = LG.

Against standard military targets, including officers? Perfectly acceptable. But to target a specific commander, that's assassination. I see enemy sniping and specific target sniping as 2 different things.

Historically and certainly in modern times, civilian and military leadership disagrees with that position. Even in the case of specifically targeting enemy civilian leadership the available legal studies suggest that provided the legal requirements for war are met (such as a causus belli) then the targeting of a specific enemy leader, civilian or military, is legally justified.

As to an ethical stance, a common refrain from combatants, sniper or otherwise, is the idea that they believe that killing an individual, even one they specifically targeted, to be done in the belief that doing so would save their comrades.

For example, let's say for the sake of discussion that Robert E. Lee was responsible for the American Civil War lasting a year longer than it would have otherwise if the South had another general in charge of the Army of Northern Virginia *and* let's also stipulate for the sake of argument that the war lasting that extra year resulted in X amount of death, casualties, suffering etc. on both sides.

A case could be made given those two conditions that a Union sniper specifically targeting and killing Lee that year prior would have been doing the moral and ethical thing since otherwise he would have been dooming both sides to a further year of death, casualties, and suffering.

Now...what if the the Union sharpshooter taking the shot believed that to be case?


Of course, there's an another issue to be sure - in D&D worlds, Good and Evil are very tangible things; Gods typically have tangible effects, so as I argue, it will eventually come back to the group/DM as to how they answer the issues.

And I'm not sure there's a wrong answer.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
I was in the US Army and aware of that point of view. I was even a 'sharp shooter', but no sniper.

My only problem with "Holy Warrior", is that word 'holy' - it's a mechanical property in the game associated with Good, as in holy vs. unholy. The problem is there isn't an easily defined term for a neutrally aligned church warrior.

Knights Templar were definitely intended to be lawful good soldiers of God fighting in the Holy Land, or against the Moors in Spain. Of course there's the opposite Muslim point of view regarding any Christian Crusader - so how morally accurate is their attributed alignment, they were people after all, and people come in all different 'alignments'.

Still, I like Templar better than Holy Warrior.
 
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blargney the second

blargney the minute's son
Murdering people for money? That's an evil act in my books. If the PCs are hired as hitmen and follow through, their alignment goes south for the winter.
 

Drowbane

First Post
It all comes down to motive. Killing blindly for money = probably very much evil. Killing evil bastards who have it coming = Neutral at worst. With the right code of conduct, an assassin could even be Good. Face it, L/G PCs kill sapient beings *all* the time and usually its not even a big deal. So is it murder to stealth-kill a tyrant? That depends on your viewpoint. In the absolutes of D&D? No. Good is in the right to dispose of Evil.

"Paladins must slay evil when possible. Remember that not only does an afterlife exist, but one can go there and visit it to watch Evil souls receive rewards from Evil deities. Since killing Evil people makes both them and everyone else better off (because they're no longer around in life to do Evil), it is in fact a moral duty to send successful Evil to the afterlife expediently." -excerpt from a awesome variant Paladin

Obviously it all comes down to what your DM agrees with.
 
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GX.Sigma

Adventurer
I have my own personal Rule 0 about this kind of thing:
Nothing is absolute (not even this rule).
Or in other words:
Every rule has an exception (including this one).
So in my opinion, assassins are "always" evil, but "always" doesn't always mean always. ;)
 

paradox42

First Post
I do see and plan to one day write up something for a Templar archetype for Paladin that is not Lawful Good, my problem has always been how best to replace Smite. Perhaps Smite the Guilty? It might even be better to create an alternate class, rather than archetype, since paladin is too defined with too long of a history in the game, to be other the LG.
Not to thread-hijack, but this is exactly what I did myself when updating the old "Paladins of alternate alignments" classes my setting has featured since way back in 1st Edition to PF. Archetypes, I decided after trying a few things out, just didn't go far enough, so I did alternate classes just as Paizo themselves did (with the Antipaladin). In particular, I made the Freedom Knight (CG, focused on Smite Law and taking down any authority that gets too onerous) and the Oppressor (LE, focused on Smite Chaos and keeping the rabble under the thumb of tyrants where they belong). Those were just my choices though; the four-way symmetry of the opposed forces appeals to me. Other choices could certainly be made.

But, that James Jacobs quote is a good one to go back to for the Assassin- fluff is really all that's necessary to change the class to make it possible to be non-Evil. There's wiggle room, and that's the important thing here for the OP (whom I got the impression of, as being a GM, FWIW).
 

enrious

Registered User
I have my own personal Rule 0 about this kind of thing:
Nothing is absolute (not even this rule).
Or in other words:
Every rule has an exception (including this one).
So in my opinion, assassins are "always" evil, but "always" doesn't always mean always. ;)

Nothing is true, everything is permitted.
 

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