Expertise Dice Not Necessarily Fighter Exclusive

Once per round isn't right.

But again, we need to ask: is the mechanism the best way to represent the character? It's not good design to throw a mechanism is that doesn't fit, just because we think the mechanic is neat.
 

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I think he was referring to the low-level fighters having only one die, making it defacto once per round.

I actually did believe it was one ability per round. However, reading it again I believe I was wrong, originally I had read it that certainly maneuvers required spending all of your expertise dice, but they instead specify a "single die".

So it does look like you can use multiple ones in the same round. Which if we go back to my dragon shaman example, they also could maintain multiple auras at high levels so it still fits:)
 
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I'm in favor, in principle, of introducing a generic martial mechanic that can be gained and utilized in vastly different ways, while maintaining a common "interface" to a wide variety of different effects.

The key thing is to make sure each class speaks to this interface in a mechanically distinct and flavorful way. Clearly there is plenty of middle ground on the issue, because we don't usually grouse about everyone using a d20 but there was plenty of grousing about, e.g. AEDU (and I mention it without judgment) for being too homogenous. The rest of the thread has covered the arguments pretty well, if not to the point of consensus. The common spell list with different ways of learning, regaining, and casting spells is, I think, a decent example of a middle ground I find acceptable.

For example, maybe the main fighter schtick is getting the expertise dice renewed automatically each round. That would make the fighter an incredibly reliable source for the things he does, whatever they are. What if a rogue gained ED (they should be more careful ;)) based on tactical consideration, and possibly varying with schemes? This would let us get away from "every rogue sneak attacks" to something more flexible. Here are some rough ideas (not intended to all work at once)

  • Gain the dice if you have advantage against at least one enemy at the start of your turn. This makes "sneak attack" quite a bit more dynamic, especially because the party and the enemy both have a say in whether it happens.
  • Gain the dice at the start of your turn if you are threatened by only one enemy. (Duelist, essentially.)
  • Gain the dice if you were not hit since your last turn ended. (Fits various highly defensive, mobile, and/or stealthy conceptions)
A warlord (as a separate class, or just as a different mechanism for fighters) might be based around granting ED to other characters, which could work quite smoothly if they are a generic resource. For example, it might be a much smoother way to grant allies damage or protection instead of a bajillion interrupts, because every character can at the very least use them to increase damage or reduce damage they take. They might refresh their own supply based on more strategic considerations, and maybe even starting combat with a larger-than-normal pool, to represent their tactical genius early in the fight.


  • Refresh when an enemy falls.
  • Refresh a random amount at the start of each turn by making some sort of "commander check".
  • Refresh when an ally gets a critical hit (more of a "rah! rah! go team!" warlord)


A barbarian could use them to power a rage mechanic that is a lot more fluid than n/day or n/encounter, relying on what actually happens in combat. Unlike other martial combatants, a barbarian might accumulate these dice over multiple turns to unleash truly monstrous effects, or choose to spend them as they come in if the situation calls for it. They could refresh based on what might actually make a barbarian angry

  • Gain dice when hit (revenge)
  • Gain dice when allies are hit (revenge for friends)
  • Gain dice when the barbarian misses (frustration)
  • Gain dice when anyone crits or is killed (bloodlust)


This could work well with multiclassing. For example, a fighter5/barbarian5 might have 2 ED from fighter levels, maybe just 1 from barbarian (but with an accumulation mechanic) and mix and match the possible uses from either class as desired. Heck, it could lead to the simplest version of Tenser's Transformation ever seen: Gain ED as a fighter of your wizard level.

In short, we have barely started to cover what is possible with the basic idea of ED, and there is plenty of room to explore outside the "refresh n dice every round" idea demonstrated in the playtest fighter.
 
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  • First, I think assuming that all martial classes are going to tap into CS is mistaken. We already know how Rogues work, Paladins historically have divine magic abilities and the Design Goals on Paladins only re-emphasize this ...
I really really hope they're not going to pull the Paladin even further away from it's martial roots. Yes yes there's divine this and that, but the underlying picture is a heavily armed & armoured warrior. I don't want to see it end up like some lumbering wooden combatant casting magic smites.
 

I'm in favor, in principle, of introducing a generic martial mechanic that can be gained and utilized in vastly different ways, while maintaining a common "interface" to a wide variety of different effects.

The key thing is to make sure each class speaks to this interface in a mechanically distinct and flavorful way. Clearly there is plenty of middle ground on the issue, because we don't usually grouse about everyone using a d20 but there was plenty of grousing about, e.g. AEDU (and I mention it without judgment) for being too homogenous. The rest of the thread has covered the arguments pretty well, if not to the point of consensus. The common spell list with different ways of learning, regaining, and casting spells is, I think, a decent example of a middle ground I find acceptable.

This post made me dig out my Iron Heroes books, and what do you know, each class has it's own unique way of refreshing it's tokens...
 

Plus, "unique mechanic" means "no clear mechanical synergy". If a couple of classes have shared mechanics, then it becomes more clear what you can do when multiclassing among those classes (if they choose to have multiclassing, which I very much expect they will).

This is a big question mark.

3e had practically two mechanics which were the focus of many classes: BAB and spells.

Multiclassed combat-oriented characters worked wonderfully because of how BAB from different classes simply added.

Multiclassed spellcasters didn't work.

Multiclassed mixes between the two worked well enough if the two classes were very far apart (i.e. nearly full-BAB with a couple of caster levels or viceversa nearly full-caster with a couple of combat-class levels) but not well if they were more evenly mixed.

OTOH if you base a lot of powers on character level rather than class level, then you can have the features (some of them) of a 1st level class scale up thanks to your levels in another class.

So the synergy results can be good or bad but it doesn't strictly depends on whether the mechanic is unique or shared: the latter case makes everything easy if individual features don't scale (but then you may end up with some class combo that just don't work*, unless ALL classes share the same mechanic) but if instead they scale then it might make a multiclass PC even straight better than a single-class... there are a lot of variables to consider here.

*not necessarily a problem for me, but I suspect that the majority of people want ALL class combinations to be more or less equally good
 

The introduction of CS strikes me as "presentation is king". It seems very much in the vein of an AEDU system, but presented on a paper plate instead of a silver platter (i.e., more flexibility/buffet options than static/entree option - a good quality, in my eyes). Or Iron Heroes, without quite-so-fiddly token tracking.
 


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