People don't optimize

[Dannyalcatraz]

Adrian Monk was an interesting one, too: genius detective with a host of psychological disorders. They never hand waved them away, either. He nearly died of dehydration when he was down in Mexico because they didn't have his brand of bottled water...

And the inspiration for his character has precedents as well- Bobby Goren of L&O: Criminal Intent had mental stability issues of his own and was the son of a serial killer; Hercule Poirot may have had OCD; Sherlock Holmes had a drug habit.

 

[Janx]

(forgot to mention his heart issue)

Stark wasn't an alkie when he built the first suit, nor the 2nd or 3rd iteration of it, but rather, became one over time. At one point, it cost him Stark, International, and nearly bankrupted him. This had an adverse affect on his ability to keep the suit in good repair. He was given an ultimatum to get help with his drinking or he'd get kicked out of The Avengers.

Had he not sobered up, he'd have lost it all. If there were to be an Iron Man character after he ended up a broken wino, it would have been someone else (probably James Rhodes). And since Rhodes didn't have the genius of Stark, the armor's development would have stagnated unless they found someone else to help.

But that's my point, as a writer of a fictional character, the problems from the character flaw are developed over time until they interfere with the hero's ability to be heroic. Then they are dealt with and overcome, and the hero rises higher.

Generally, nobody creates a character who's flaw is immediate, overpowering and unbeatable such that the character can't exit the starting gate and actually do anything.

If Tony Stark had started as a child addict of rich parents and got kidnapped and held in a cave to design a weapon, he would have sat in a corner wimpering because he didn't have his fix. Then he would have died.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Adrian Monk was an interesting one, too: genius detective with a host of psychological disorders. They never hand waved them away, either. He nearly died of dehydration when he was down in Mexico because they didn't have his brand of bottled water...

And the inspiration for his character has precedents as well- Bobby Goren of L&O: Criminal Intent had mental stability issues of his own and was the son of a serial killer; Hercule Poirot may have had OCD; Sherlock Holmes had a drug habit.

Holmes is a series I have read many times, and I loved monk (although I am unsure of rewatchability) I really just got feed up, House and Monk would very rearly be able to get away with there isues.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Generally, nobody creates a character who's flaw is immediate, overpowering and unbeatable such that the character can't exit the starting gate and actually do anything

Elric's albinism & frailty and Ben January's race were constant issues from birth, dealt with only because of crutches in place at the beginning of their respective series. And while Stark didn't start off as an alkie, his chest/heart injury was the direct catalyst for his creation of the Iron Man suit.

All of their heroism arises AFTER conquering certain issues that would normally prevent people from engaging in acts we'd consider heroic.

 

[Janx]

Elric's albinism & frailty and Ben January's race were constant issues from birth, dealt with only because of crutches in place at the beginning of their respective series. And while Stark didn't start off as an alkie, his chest/heart injury was the direct catalyst for his creation of the Iron Man suit.

All of their heroism arises AFTER conquering certain issues that would normally prevent people from engaging in acts we'd consider heroic.

Stark wasn't exactly helpless and debilitated by his heart condition, was he?

I got no clue about the other guys you cite, but they weren't bed ridden.

The Elric novel didn't start and end on page 1 with:
Elric was a sickly boy. He couldn't get out of bed. He stayed in bed all day for all of his life. One day, a wizardly man came by, to ask him to undertake a quest to save the world. Elric replied, "sorry, I'm stuck in bed. Can't get up." The wizard shrugged and walked out the door. Elric wondered what became of the old man and his epic quest. Some weeks later, the world ended.

Finis.

 

[Celebrim]

...but a significant number do:

• Elric was a weak albino, dependent upon drugs & Stormbringer to muster the energy to perform any kind of strenuous activity, and his allies have a habit of getting killed.
• Tony Stark is an alcoholic.
• Bruce Banner had multiple personality disorders.
• Dexter is a serial killer.
• Benjamin January was a black man in pre-Civil War USA.
• Samwise, Frodo & the rest are hobbits, a race looked down upon (literally & figuratively) by nearly every other race in Middle Earth.
• Etrigan and The Demon are both of hellish origins.
• Deadman is....dead.

A significant portion of those are post-modern and part of the very 'darker and edgier' movement we are discussing. The personality flaws of Banner and Stark (and The Hulk for that matter) become more pronounced in their characterization over time.

The exceptions to that, Frodo, Sam, Benjamin January aren't in fact greatly burdened by character flaws. Benjamin January is extraordinarily gifted, and his basic problem is not that he is flawed, but that the society around him is. Frodo is extraordinarily gifted in just about every way possible. Sam 'Halfwise' does have a few character flaws, notably a short temper, a tendency common in the uneducated to assume that educated people lack wisdom, and a tendency to speak up when he'd be better to remain silent; but these are generally overlooked by most readers because of his great virtues.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Stark wasn't exactly helpless and debilitated by his heart condition, was he?

He most absolutely was. Without at least a pacemaker, he would have died. His mind & skills allowed him to Jerry-rig a pacemaker that doubled as armor...and as a weapon system. But without a access to that pile of scrap? Dead.

The Elric novel didn't start and end on page 1 with:
Elric was a sickly boy. He couldn't get out of bed. He stayed in bed all day for all of his life. One day, a wizardly man came by, to ask him to undertake a quest to save the world. Elric replied, "sorry, I'm stuck in bed. Can't get up." The wizard shrugged and walked out the door. Elric wondered what became of the old man and his epic quest. Some weeks later, the world ended.

No, but OTOH, he was described as being so sickly and frail that he required drugs just to stay alive. As the wiki put it:

Physically weak and frail, the albino Elric must take drugs—later retconned to mean special herbs—in order to maintain his health.

This IS his status at the beginning. Stormbringer substituted its ability to transfer the vitality of stolen souls to him. Without the blade or the herbs, he wastes away like a victim of tuberculosis.

Ben January is a Paris-trained MD and concert-level pianist and as such is more educated than 90% of the people he meets, yet as a black man in pre-Civil War New Orleans, is treated as a second class human; is incapable of voting or testifying in court; lives in constant danger of lynching or being enslaved (which happens in one novel).

 

[Janx]

He most absolutely was. Without at least a pacemaker, he would have died. His mind & skills allowed him to Jerry-rig a pacemaker that doubled as armor...and as a weapon system. But without a access to that pile of scrap? Dead.



No, but OTOH, he was described as being so sickly and frail that he required drugs just to stay alive. As the wiki put it:



This IS his status at the beginning. Stormbringer substituted its ability to transfer the vitality of stolen souls to him. Without the blade or the herbs, he wastes away like a victim of tuberculosis.

Ben January is a Paris-trained MD and concert-level pianist and as such is more educated than 90% of the people he meets, yet as a black man in pre-Civil War New Orleans, is treated as a second class human; is incapable of voting or testifying in court; lives in constant danger of lynching or being enslaved (which happens in one novel).

In the first 2 examples here of Stark and Elric, the author quickly comes up with a way for them to become functioning heroes. Sure, it's dramatic to start the story off with how they overcame their affliction. But they overcome it and spend the majority of the time fighting evil, right?

As for Ben January, he sounds like a civil war era Bruce Wayne. He's got brains, probably can take care of himself. His setback creates drama for him, but when it comes to him actually being heroic, being a black man in New Orleans doesn't exactly intefere with playing piano or doing surgery.

I think the flaws I cringe at (that [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] seems to agree are when players make a PC and are expected to create him in a crippled way that he can't be an effective adventurer.

With Stark and Elric, the flaws are present to create future situations where they are hampered by their ailment. But the majority of the time, they get to fly around and zap bad guys. Just like Superman gets nailed with kryptonite.

It might be a bit of a strawman to assume that folks are building un-adventurable adventurers using the D&D rules. But I've seen a few PCs trotted out as "look at my realistic PC, he's got flaws and stuff" and they're barely able to function socially, physically or mechanically.

 

[Celebrim]

No, but OTOH, he was described as being so sickly and frail that he required drugs just to stay alive.

What I find ironic about this is that Elric supposed health problems are almost text book examples of RPG style optimization. I can almost see the conversation now:

Player: So, here is my new character, his name is 'Elric'.
DM: Ok, weak code of honor...Hold on, Strength 3? Constitution 3? Outcast? Non-combatant? Maniac Depressive? Albinoism? Albinoism, really???
Player: Yeah, it was worth 10 points.
DM: Ok, whatever. I got to be honest, you've taken a lot of flaws here. Are you sure that this character is going to be playable?
Player: Yeah, check out the back of the sheet, with all the points I got from taking those flaws I was able to purchase a class VI artifact as a heirloom.
DM: Wait a minute... a CLASS SIX ARTIFACT???
Player: Heh, yeah, it's called StormBringer and its really cool.
DM, flipping the sheet over: Oh, that's cute. Nice abuse of the item pricing rules. The point cost of magically enhancing constitution and strength is less than the points you get by dumping the stats, so you've actually managed to get 18's across the board..... Oh, and the sword grants Enhanced Combat ability that completely mitigates the non-Combatant feat, and leaves you 6 points left over. And since you've dumped all your attribute points into ego, you can actually control the thing on a roll of 2 or better. No way am I letting that into my campaign.
Player: But, it's fully by the rules. You said we were using the 3rd edition rules, and I did ask about the Extended Magic supplement and you indicated you were ok.
DM: I thought you just wanted some variant spells. I didn't know you were going to make a class six artifact for a starting character!?!?
Player: Look, you can't just go changing the rules because you don't like the results.
DM: Fine, it's a class six artifact, so you had to buy at least one malignent disadvantage. What is it?
Player: I choose 'Eventual Doom', but I was able to get the price down to decades scale by making the artifact inherently evil and require souls to power it.
DM: And you've never had a problem playing in the dark side of the pool and figure that the campaign will be over well before a decade of game time... Ok, fine. I'll find a way to work with this, just don't be surprised if your foes are above recommended challenge rating. it is a class six artifact.

The point being, flaws that don't really impact the character except at the level of fluff aren't really flaws.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What I find ironic about this is that Elric supposed health problems are almost text book examples of RPG style optimization. I can almost see the conversation now:

Player: So, here is my new character, his name is 'Elric'.
DM: Ok, weak code of honor...Hold on, Strength 3? Constitution 3? Outcast? Non-combatant? Maniac Depressive? Albinoism? Albinoism, really???
Player: Yeah, it was worth 10 points.
DM: Ok, whatever. I got to be honest, you've taken a lot of flaws here. Are you sure that this character is going to be playable?
Player: Yeah, check out the back of the sheet, with all the points I got from taking those flaws I was able to purchase a class VI artifact as a heirloom.
DM: Wait a minute... a CLASS SIX ARTIFACT???
Player: Heh, yeah, it's called StormBringer and its really cool.

Point of fact: Elric did not start off the first book with Stormbringer; he acquires it in that book, and not early on, either.

So he starts off as a druggie who vacillates between near stupor and drug-induced vigor...kind of like a person with untreated bipolar disorder...and without the truly high highs that condition can generate.

In addition, unlike the drugs which arepredictable, Stormbringer is actually a polymorphed demon who occasionally withholds its vitality transfers from Elric...especially when Elric tries to assert his will over it.