D&D 5E You can't necessarily go back

[Lanefan]

No. The point is that your players, like their characters don't know if they will get the opportunity to create massive and highly effective force multipliers for low cost and therefore don't bother trying. They don't even try from what you've said. Ever. When crafting a wand of Cure Light Wounds only takes a day (not even that for an Artificer) and is very, very effective.

In 3e.

Which is why I far prefer the 1e way in this case, where item creation is generally not something adventuring characters do and certainly not until quite high level; and when they do there's a high enough amount of game-world time involved to present a serious choice whether or not to stop adventuring for that long.

Lanefan

 

[Steely_Dan]

In 3e.

Which is why I far prefer the 1e way in this case, where item creation is generally not something adventuring characters do and certainly not until quite high level; and when they do there's a high enough amount of game-world time involved to present a serious choice whether or not to stop adventuring for that long.

Yeah, the downtime could be daunting, and acquiring the materials could be an adventure in itself.

I prefer magic item creation to be at the DM's discretion, maybe he/she allows PCs to craft them, or maybe they are beyond the purview of players (in the hands of gods, and NPCs etc).

 

[Hussar]

I'll admit, I'm rather torn. On one hand, I love just handing things off to the players. You want that +3 Widget, you have the cash? Go for it. I'll chuck things in the adventure that I think you might like, sometimes you do, sometimes you sell it and get something you like better. Great. It also stops the whole "every fighter uses a sword because that's all we ever find" syndrome. I like that fighters (or other characters) use a variety of implements and don't have to worry about me, the DM, throwing them a bone when they want that +2 Voulge.

OTOH, it is utterly game changing when the players decide to actually use the rules. It really is. Clerics no longer have to use any slots in healing outside of combat. Sure, you might get the odd in-combat healing, but, by and large, clerics no longer heal which radically changes how clerics play. The Batman-Wizard with a utility belt o' goodies makes a very large impact on the game as well.

For those who haven't seen it, it's really eye-opening when it does happen. We didn't have it happen until late in 3e and then WOW, it just zoomed off the chart.

And IMO, it's not even that bad of a thing really. But, it is really, really game changing when your 3e group, which previously would do 1-3 encounters in a row, starts doing entire adventures without slowing down.

Additionally, I would never claim what is "normal" for home games. Maybe it was crafting, maybe it wasn't. But, I do know that the RPGA, which formed a large basis for the thinking behind 4e, used crafting extensively, to the point where CLW wands were pretty much assumed for every character and things like that.

 

[slobo777]

OTOH, it is utterly game changing when the players decide to actually use the rules.

This.

The Craft Wand feat is in the first PHB, alongside all the other materials and rules necessary to easily create a variety of simple, quick and cheap character-boosting items (first level wands take a day to create, and cost 750gp, 30xp). The rule books are practically inviting enterprising players to explore the possibilities that this presents. So it is not surprising to see it crop up.

There are also many hundreds of other options that 3E gives as well. So it's also not surprising to find whole campaigns where this hasn't happened because the players are too busy having an adventure.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This.

The Craft Wand feat is in the first PHB, alongside all the other materials and rules necessary to easily create a variety of simple, quick and cheap character-boosting items (first level wands take a day to create, and cost 750gp, 30xp). The rule books are practically inviting enterprising players to explore the possibilities that this presents. So it is not surprising to see it crop up.

There are also many hundreds of other options that 3E gives as well. So it's also not surprising to find whole campaigns where this hasn't happened because the players are too busy having an adventure.

375GP to create. 750 to buy over the counter.

And yes, there are plenty of other options in the PHB. And it's only once you look at certain of them 3.X really collapses under its own weight. More accurately, in my experience almost everything in 3.X works if you use it as the designers intended it to be used. If you start getting creative it falls apart.

 

[Shadeydm]

In 3e.

Which is why I far prefer the 1e way in this case, where item creation is generally not something adventuring characters do and certainly not until quite high level; and when they do there's a high enough amount of game-world time involved to present a serious choice whether or not to stop adventuring for that long.

Lanefan

Can't xp you but too prefer the 1E approach to 3 or 4E assumptions about magic items and magic item stores. It was an "evolution" of the game I have zero appreciation for beyond the obvious "some people like it".

 

[Shadeydm]

Yeah, the downtime could be daunting, and acquiring the materials could be an adventure in itself.

I prefer magic item creation to be at the DM's discretion, maybe he/she allows PCs to craft them, or maybe they are beyond the purview of players (in the hands of gods, and NPCs etc).

Can't xp you but yes I am like minded on this issue. I'm looking forward to seeing how the every magic item is unique approach of 5E unfolds too.

 

[Ahnehnois]

FWIW I totally hate the 3e magic item paradigm; items are assumed way too much.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Can't xp you but too prefer the 1E approach to 3 or 4E assumptions about magic items and magic item stores. It was an "evolution" of the game I have zero appreciation for beyond the obvious "some people like it".

I can understand the distaste. In 1e magic items were the DM's thing. He placed them in treasure, he had NPCs charge vast sums of money or service for them, he decided whether an PC could make an item and exactly what that item would do when it was made. True, it led to the occasional 'Monty Haul' campaign, but a good enough DM could not only make it work, he could use it (and other related elements, like magical phenomena that permanently changed characters interacting with them), to shape not just his world, but the PCs, themselves, providing a sort of character development that the class/level system didn't.

But, it's part of a broader change that's probably for the better: putting character concept and character development in the hands of the players. You get to play the character you want, via not just a race/class decision at chargen, but class/PrC, ranks, feat, power, and other decisions as you level up. And, among those decisions are magical equipment that you can make/buy (or merely wish-list and hope).

 

[Ahnehnois]

But, it's part of a broader change that's probably for the better: putting character concept and character development in the hands of the players. You get to play the character you want, via not just a race/class decision at chargen, but class/PrC, ranks, feat, power, and other decisions as you level up. And, among those decisions are magical equipment that you can make/buy (or merely wish-list and hope).

I'm all for making the character you want. I think where people have problems (and where I know I do) is the idea that your equipment is part of who you are, which 3e in particular strongly reinforces. I think those choices are great, but any time you start expanding character creation rules outside of your character (be it through assumed items, stronghold resources, cohorts, animal companions), you're in really dicey territory.

There's also the unfortunate dynamic that equipment is far more important for noncasters than casters, which is really counterintuitive. A really good fighter should just be able to punch someone in the face or pick up a sword and go, whereas a spellcaster should need a staff or a scroll or some rare incense to do anything.

I would be nice if characters were balanced independently of their equipment.