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Transcending the mundane. How to make martial classes epic.

In my 1e AD&D games, the high level Fighter types were definitely 'up there' with the casters.

I've often stated that in 1e, the Fighters were the strongest characters in the game. This was because they just so far excelled everyone else at durability that it was no contest. They had far and away the best saves, had more than twice the hit points of the other classes, and were the only ones to get iterative attacks. To make matters worse, once weapon specialization became widely accepted they tended to have far and away the highest damage dealing capacity.

That being said, the same basic points could be made by pointing to 1e/2e thiefs - who were outshone in everything by 10th level or so. Or you could make the same points by noting that even in 1e, the fighter classes were heavily gear dependent, still lacked the ability to deal with environments, and sans gear lacked out of combat spotlight.

I think it is right to note that a lot of the caster/non-caster problem begins at 3e, but it would be wrong to assume that there weren't already problems in 1e. Some of the problems here are rule set specific, but not all of them.

For example, in my game, one rule change has done a lot to restore caster/non-caster balance and that's doing away with the rule that adds the spell's level to the DC to save against the spell. This greatly reduces the ability of casters to dominate the action economy. As my caster's note, 'Hold Person is still worth trying.', but that 3 reduction in DC often translates to 50% or more reduction in the chance that it will win outright. Restoring the notion that the higher your level gets the more likely you will save helps a bunch. But by itself I don't think it makes up for the fact that at 17th level in any edition, your wizard can cast 'Wish' and your fighter is still hitting things with a sharp stick. More work is needed.

By the time you've done everything necessary it's pretty much a new game, so I prefer to cap my 3e/PF games at E10 these days.

As a practical matter, I've never ran a campaign in any edition that has gotten past 10th level, so much of the problems of high level play never effect me. This is because I deliberately choose to linger in what I consider the edition's sweet spot. We are now 2 years into my current campaign, having had more than 40 sessions, and the characters are 5th level. By the time we hit 10th level, the campaign might well have been going for 4 years or more. At low levels, I've gotten the balance issues whipped, but fixing it at high levels is a theoretical excercise for me. This strategy might not work for everyone, but it works for me.
 

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In my 1e AD&D games, the high level Fighter types were definitely 'up there' with the casters. They'd be making saves on a '2' with their rings of protection et al, hitting on a '2' 4 times a round (eg Cavalier-16 Att 3/r, +1 with TWF) for enormous piles of damage with their girdles of storm giant strength and +3 swords of sharpness or +5 swords, flying through the air with cloaks of flying or whatever, soaking up damage that would kill demogorgon, and generally having a great time. :)

It was only a series of 3e design decisions that destroyed caster/non-caster balance. It's possible to strip out many of the ones that nerf non-casters, but some of the spells (and Druid companion animals) remain too good at replacing non-casters. By the time you've done everything necessary it's pretty much a new game, so I prefer to cap my 3e/PF games at E10 these days.

Indeed. I generally have considered the "magic" of mundanes to be external (items, armors, potions etc.) as opposed to the internal magic of casters. Pre 3e fighters got all the best magic items becuase of hard caps written into the game. Usually in the form of "Usuable by Fighters only!" With the removal of many such restrictions casters could pile on both internal and external sources of power. Which is why I tend to limit any games I play to low levels as well.
The level of character is like a gonzo dial with realism at the level 1 end and OMGWTFBBQ!! at the level 20 side. The mundanes just need more abilities that let them fill their niche at high levels.
 

I'll bring Batman and the JLA in now because even though he hs no super powers he does have plot power. Because he's written he always ends up being, doing, or having the right thing at the right time.

In my game I have something called 'destiny points', which are essentially 'rerolls' but can also be used to add bonuses to a die throw or to buy temporary feats or negate critical hits and a variaty of other purposes. The purpose is to mitigate bad luck so that a player who is careful not to get themselves in bad situations to often should not ever die to a single bad roll.

I've been toying with the idea of having a class ('Paragon') that has as their main feature a pool of regenerating destiny points to spend. I haven't yet gotten the class worked out enough to put it into the house rules, but one possibility for dealing with the situation is to give mundanes at high levels a pool of 'narrative points' of some fashion that represents the favor that they have with powers in high places or some innate force of their being. In addition to the sort of stuff above, you could create a stunting system around them that allowed mundanes to pull off a certain number of incredible feats per day. You'd have to be careful to define how it worked and the options available, but that would be one possibility that would grant great power but which wouldn't feel like turning the mundane into a spellcaster.

Probably the biggest thing holding back the mundane classes are the fictional archetypes that we get exposed to in books. In older editions 20th level mundanes were Conan, Aragorn, Gandalf, King Arthur and their fictional contemporaries.

I agree that is one of the biggest problems. The most notable examples of pre-D&D mundane heroes tend in fact to be 6th-10th level based on their deeds in the narrative. But because they are so noted and well known, they are typically assumed to be examples of epic fighters - which is just not true. Another problem is the existance of the Monk class, which has tended to suggest that if you can do epic feats of skill, that you must be a monk or perhaps some oriental class. Personally, I hate the notion of a cultural split between classes. Well designed classes ought to be able to cover the fighters and spellcasters of every culture, or else they aren't in my opinion broad enough to be core archeatypal classes. If you want to play a samurrii or a monk, it ought to be obvious how you take a fighter in that direction. It should not be assumed that you need a special class to do it. One obvious reason why this has to be true is that you are really only slicing what the mundane classes can do that narrowly and siloing away mundane abilities so that your other mundane classes can't access them. When you create a variant spellcasting class with variant spells, you are really never siloing off that ability - just some slight mechanical variation. I hate mechanical variation for its own sake, but I hate even more creating highly narrow silos of abilities that end up saying, "You can't get anything good because someone else already has it."

When I can do something like that at level 20 I think the mundanes can then stand side beside with casters and know they have earned their spot and not just been some tag along.

The exact nature of what you do as an epic fighter ought to be configurable.

Personally, again I think that the designers of the feat/skill systems in 3e were overly conservative in their approach especially when you compare what a feat taken at a certain level or what a certain amount of skill ranks in a given skill can do relative to what a spell obtained at that same level can do. Granted, since the feat or skill are 'at will abilities' (or IMO should be, otherwise, just give the fighters spells and be done with it), they probably shouldn't be quite as powerful as an equivalent level spell but in terms of what they allow the player to accomplish over the course of a session then they should.

I don't think that full balance can be achieved without some selective roll backs of 3e caster power (shapechanging, save or suck, absolute immunities, spells that automaticly work and replace a skill use), since abusive 3e casters are absurdly powerful, but I think much more balance can be achieved without totally nerfing casters and losing that awesome aspect of D&D where your wizard really does start to feel like a wielder of incredible power.

My starting point in trying to achieve balance is to start balancing feat progression and feat power, and skill progression and skill utility, with the exponentially increasing power of spells. For example, my high level fighters actually reach a point were they are gaining more than one feat per level, and the feats that they do gain access to at that point are granting either phenomenal power (you become a magic weapon, and grant that enhancement to every weapon you touch), or else multiple useful abilities. Additionally, my fighters gain 4 skill point per level and have good access to skills, including skills like Tactics and Leadership that give them the ability to buff allies as a free action. The idea here is to avoid creating monks, marshals, knights, samurrii, warblades, etc. and instead dump that all into one bucket and say, "Fighters - you get all this good stuff. You can hit the target with a flurry of blows, buff your allies, taunt foes into attacking you, leap over small buildings, run faster than a race horse, carry a wagon on your back, and tear off the limbs of a gargoyle with your bare hands. Mix and match to taste."
 

Indeed. I generally have considered the "magic" of mundanes to be external (items, armors, potions etc.) as opposed to the internal magic of casters. Pre 3e fighters got all the best magic items becuase of hard caps written into the game. Usually in the form of "Usuable by Fighters only!" With the removal of many such restrictions casters could pile on both internal and external sources of power. Which is why I tend to limit any games I play to low levels as well.
The level of character is like a gonzo dial with realism at the level 1 end and OMGWTFBBQ!! at the level 20 side. The mundanes just need more abilities that let them fill their niche at high levels.

I've played fighters in 1e, 2e, 3e, and 4e. The main differences I recall...

In 1e I could kill 1 HD monsters pretty much off the cuff, no roll needed. I also had a sweet stronghold. Played up to level 11. Died multiple times.

In 2e I got multiple attacks and a long exposition about fighters in literature. Played up to level 14. Got a nine lives stealer sword and eradicated hordes of monsters in the Bloodstone Mines.

In 3e I relied on an arsenal of magic items to do my job, and when the going got tough the casters would bless, enlarge, and otherwise power me up. Played up to level 13 (however i joined the game at level 9). Killed Nosrna the Hill Giant Chief in a fierce duel.

In 4e my powers were pretty awesome out of the gate, but they raised plausibility questions if anyone asked. So far at level 6, but it's been pretty epic - threw my knight's banner like a javelin at an oncoming goblin and sent him flying back killed him outright.
 

Perhaps there is a problem with what people think of when the word epic comes up. On further reflection I think there are two main types of epic that appear in regards to gaming. The first is epic as it relates to the scope scope of the adventure or campaign and the second is epic as it relates to personal power or ability.
The Lord of the Rings is a great example of the first type of epic. A small band of heroes rally the races of light for last ditch effort to fight and eventually defeat a demonic entity bent on remaking reality in its own image. That story is very epic in terms of scope but very few of the characters do anything outside of human capability.
Contrast that to say Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Which is a very personal story revolving around duty, personal honour, revenge and unrequited love. The fate of the world doesn't hang in the balance here yet we get people dancing on the top of trees, flying over roofs, shattering walls and tons of other stuff that defy realistic expectations. There are only a few instances of 'magic', mostly in the form of some enchanted weapons. The characters in the film can do what they do because they are great warriors and possess knowledge of secret techniques.

DnD at any level can tell the first type of story. You don't need a good set of mechanics to have an epic adventure. It's the second one where the martial classes need more.

Casters, especially wizards and clerics, end up being very powerful generalist classes. They will have an answer for almost any situation, especially if given enough time to prepare. Fighters et al. by design end up being super specialized, usually becuase it's "realistic". They will have to spend resources getting good at one style of fighting or one weapon or what have you. Unfortunately at level 20 that makes them completely beholden to the DM because at that point they have to sit around hoping that the DM put something in the adventure for them to do. A DM can't just say "here's a problem. Solve it." They have to explicitly cater to each character's niche power or they can't do anything. If the Rogue spent 20 levels worth of skill points on opening locks there damn well better be a lock that only they can open... This sort of siloing has only gotten worse due to the proliferation of classes, prestige classes, paragon paths and any other thing that makes you only good at one thing. Without each class having a good SET of tools to draw from they can't really initiate anything in game they can merely react. That is what makes casters so powerful is that by level 20 the have a lot of control over how the game turns out. Martial classes need that too.
 

Fighters et al. by design end up being super specialized, usually becuase it's "realistic".

I don't think realism is the only or maybe not even primary problem here. The problem is that the D&D Vancian spellcasting system lends itself to being highly extensible. If there is something left out of the design of spellcasters, it is easy enough to add it in a splat book later on, filling in some potential gap in spellcaster power, or creating greater synergy and the potential for optimization. No spell tends to create a limitation on any other spell, and no new spellcasting class tends to impinge on an existing class. To put it simply, Vancian magic tends to make spellcasters immune to all bad design except for being broken by making spells which are too good.

The same has not been true of the martial classes, and ultimately I think in D&D's case you have to blame this on a very long running series of bad design decisions. The martial classes are nerfed because no one has approached the question of how to design one properly well.

They will have to spend resources getting good at one style of fighting or one weapon or what have you.

That in itself isn't the problem. One of the biggest mistakes that has been usually made with regards to trying to balance the fighter with the spellcasters has been to look at the problem as being simply not making the fighter good enough at hitting things with a pointy stick. The truth is that the fighter has pretty much always hit things with a pointy stick well enough, and that no amount of giving him bigger sticks really fixes the problems.

The problem is that - even within the archetype of 'fighter' - there are a broad range of capabilities associated with the idea which instead of being seen as the proper business of 'fighters' instead have been silo'd off into an increasing number of variant classes. This problem has existed ever since classes like Cavalier and Barbarian became standard. Where once the Viking or the Knight were considered properly fighters, they then became properly Barbarians and Cavaliers. The reason for this was the realization that there was skills and abilities specific to each that weren't really part of what a fighter was specifically defined as being able to do. But rather than realizing that the fighter needed to be reengineered to have those sorts of options, they were moved out of the class. This process wasn't reversed until Feats came along in 3e, but by then there were new flaws in the design. And the same flawed philosophy continued into 4e, when classes like the Marshall or Warlord silo'd off the notion of a leader and commander away from the Fighter who had always held those notions but had never been allowed to capitalize on them mechanically.

The fundamental problem is similar to the problem posed to OD&D by the introduction of the Thief. The very fact that the thief could now pick locks, climb walls, and move silently seemed to imply that the fighter (or any other class) could not do those things. Previously they had been players choices dealt with in an ad hoc manner by the DM. But now they were removed from being choices at all, because the Thief had packed them up and walked away with them. Worse yet, the Thief wasn't even very good at them. It's not the that Thief was narrow, it's that the Thief made everything else more narrow. It's this space sharing and endless bifurcation that hurts the martial classes.

It's not the result of 'realism'. It's the result of trying to fix the balance by endless extension, rather than by addressing it at a core level.

If the Rogue spent 20 levels worth of skill points on opening locks there damn well better be a lock that only they can open...

The bigger problem is if the door is barred on the other side, 40 levels of open locks might be of no use. Worse yet, if the door is Wizard Locked 40 levels of open locks WILL be of no use. The problem lies not with the Open Locks skill or its utility, but the fact that spells predate the existance of the skill system. As such, a spell like Knock or Wizard Lock is written in a way that doesn't integrate with the skill system, rather it simply just DOES something usually with a 100% chance of success. This completely outclasses any sort of skill system. Back in 1e, there might have been an excuse, but the issue simply has never been addressed even when the tools were created that should have let it be addressed.

The rogues biggest problem has been that when skills were introduced, they were introduced in such a tentative, hesitant fashion, that they were always weak and overshadowed by preexisting spells. 3e in particular adds in skills in such a hestitant fearful way, like it is fearful the having skills might break game balance in some way, that almost no class really benefits from it.

From the fighter's perspective, the biggest problem is the underlying abstraction and simplicity of the combat system. D&D traditionally provided no concrete rules for tripping, pushing, grappling, parrying, dodging, feinting and so forth. This led to situations where such things were either not possible (because they weren't specifically allowed) or else, if a DM did allow them, they were done in an ad hoc manner (like picking a lock prior to the thief class). Instead of addressing this design flaw by ammending the core rules, it's always been easier to address it by extending the existing classes by giving them something new that they can buy - specialization, a manuever, a feat, a skill trick. But this meant that the classes scarce resources had to be spread over a wider and wider variaty of enhancements. This would never really address the problem.

The real solution in my opinion is to not focus on the class so much as the system in which it lives. Too many feats extend a class by adding a new manuever - even if it is something so simple a kindegardener in a playground tantrum might try - which effectively excludes anyone without the feat from trying the manuever. Too many feats serve to extend the skill system, restricting the skill system for those without the feat. Instead, the combat system should be extended, or the skill system extended, and the feat addressing skill in that area should simply make you better at something you already could attempt with slightly less proficiency. 3e started in this direction, but it was far too hesitant in its implementation, fearing things that were new while trusting too much things that were old.

In 3e terms, feats and skills are the mundane classes resources. The problem isn't merely that the classes need better access to these (though that doesn't hurt), but that feats and skills need to be brought up to compete more with spells. The heal skill might need to allow the possibility of actual healing, for example, without the need for a feat that extends the skill. Skills need to serve as something you can actively choose to do (like Tumble) rather than solely as something you can use to overcome a passive hurdle (like a Knowledge check). Feats need to progess in power and perhaps sometimes do more than we currently associate with feats.

And spells need to be rewritten to interact with the skill system in less absolute ways. For example, in my game 'knock' essentially lets you make an open lock check at a distance using a skill more favorable to the spellcaster than 'open lock' would be. It's superior in several ways to a mundane application of skill, but sense using it spends resources it doesn't replace the mundane application (which for example, since it doesn't spend resources, allows you to take 20). Wizard Lock does the opposite, making attempts to open the door by other means much more difficult (harder to force, harder to pick, etc.) But an 'epic' (high level) thief could be expected to possibly 'pick' a Wizard Locked door cast by a lesser wizard, because such a 'lock' just makes his door more secure rather than perfectly secure (except to another wizard) as it traditionally did.

The over specialization of the mundane classes didn't occur as the result of realism. It occurred as a result of failure to rectify bad design, which resulted in more bad design.
 

Meatboy said:
Without each class having a good SET of tools to draw from they can't really initiate anything in game they can merely react. That is what makes casters so powerful is that by level 20 the have a lot of control over how the game turns out. Martial classes need that too.

So it sounds like you'd like to see fighters be given non-combat abilities?

I guess the point of my reflection was that - with the *possible* exception of 3e - I always had fun as a fighter and didn't feel upstaged by casters or any other classes for that matter. I think in our 4e Keep on the Borderlands game, my Essentials knight has been a very important resource to the party combat-wise in terms of soaking up damage, defending allies (with powers like Shield Block), and cleaving through weaker monsters...but also outside of combat in terms of court etiquette, politics and diplomacy with nobles.

Of course, you could argue this is merely a reflection that our group doesn't have a heavily optimized caster. Which would be correct.
 

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] - good post, can't XP; but IMO 4e did solve the Skills issue. And it even provided marginally satisfactory workarounds on "Your Fighter's not a leader, he just hits stuff!" issue. When I play a 4e Fighter I dump WIS so I can have good CHA (which is equally good for Will defense), take the Multiclass Warlord feat, and gain Diplomacy and some emergency martial healing ('inspiring') ability. This pretty much gives me what I want without significantly nerfing my guy, though some RPGNet munchkins were scolding me that dumping WIS meant I didn't get the class-feature WIS bonus to opportunity attacks. :hmm:
4e also siloed off attack spells and limited them to the same framework as martial powers, rather than the potentially infinite variety of other editions, while making non-attack spells weaker and potentially available to anyone. I would hope that 5e learns from 4e and doesn't go back to 3e caster-supremacy.
 

[MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] - good post, can't XP; but IMO 4e did solve the Skills issue.

I know some people really enjoy 4e, but IMO most of the 4e design ammounted to simply sidestepping some of D&D's more intractable problems rather than truly solving them. They did this by standardizing the classes in such a way that no class could truly excel another class greatly, but as a result they created a game where hitting things with a pointy stick and wielding arcane power fundamentally feels like the same thing and where fighting goblins and fighting Orcus fundamentally feels like the same thing.

4e's tightly defined and universal framework did argubly solve the balance issue, but at the expense of weakening the utility of magic, magic items, and even skills. To me it treaded too close to the idea of, "So, we have this problem where the fighter only hits stuff, and that creates imbalance. How are we going to solve it? I know! Let's make it where every class only hits stuff! Problem solved!" Whether you see it as turning every class into a spellcaster, or turning every class into the fighter you end up in the same place.

For me it comes down to the fact that prior editions of D&D did a remarkably good job of capturing the entire range of literary spellcasters - from the stumbling apprentice of neglible power to characters of phenomenal cosmic power capable of reshaping reality to their whim. That's not something I think ought to be sacrificed; it's part of what makes D&D unique. Part of the problem is that the literary inspirations of fighters don't have the same range of ability (at least, in Western literature). The most familiar formidable fighters don't scale up in power to above 10th level or so, and as such, there was I think never a push early on to model epic fighters. And conversely, it was assumed by many players that those familiar fighters - Fafrd, Conan, Aragorn, etc. - represented 20th level of ability, and hense the upper limits of what a fighter ought to be allowed to do. For me, the problem is that in everything but hitting things with a pointy stick, the 20th level of fighter is really about the 10th level of what fighters ought to be able to accomplish.
 

The fact is though, it did create martial classes that truly felt epic. The Fighter, the Rogue, the Ranger, the Warlord, each one of them felt epic.


Fighter
- Could hold monsters on him, period.
- By Paragon Tier was unbelievably sticky, and capable of taking all but the hardest hits
- Had multiple features that could come very close to winning combat on their own.

This felt Epic. The fighter just felt like the sort of class that could go toe to toe with a dragon. Maybe not the HIGHEST DAMAGE, but very high damage combined with a great effect on the battlefield.

Ranger
- Unbelievably high damage
- No, seriously, rangers had the highest damage expressions of any class


Rogue
- Huge damage
- Interesting powers, like hiding in the middle of a battlefield, getting combat advantage for all sorts of things
- Some fun utility abilities

Warlord
- Could rearrange huge sections of the battlefield
- Could enable enemies attacks
- Could bring allies back to their feet with a few barked words


The lesson is to look at what these classes have that 3E classes didn't. Battlefield control - the ability to make even dragons respect your class. Powerful techniques that had strong influence on the outcome of combat. And interaction with other classes that showed off just how powerful your hero was.

In contrast, in 3E, the martial classes were mostly making the same old attacks from 1-20. Hell, it actually narrowed at high levels (many things at high levels were practically immune to trip, which was one of the fighter's big things at lower levels).

The key is to give people more influence on the battlefield with martial characters. Let one of them be the 'I hit for big numbers!' class, but when each and every class is the 'I hit for big numbers!' class it gets to be a very boring shtick.

And for the love of god, if you're going to have "I hit for big numbers" don't let the wizard go "I hit for infinity damage, he's dead, cool story about your big numbers bro."
 

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