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D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

What is a Level 1 PC?

  • Average Joe

    Votes: 21 6.1%
  • Average Joe... with potential

    Votes: 119 34.5%
  • Special but not quite a Hero

    Votes: 175 50.7%
  • Already a Hero and extraordinary

    Votes: 30 8.7%

Imaro

Legend
After playing some more of 4e, I've decided that the combats are pretty boring. Every combat is the same: hit, hit, healing powers, hit, hit, monsters dead, PCs use healing surges. The monsters usually hit every round but don't do enough damage for anyone to care about. Monsters take forever to die and the group ends up grinding them down with at-wills once the battle is clearly won. I have never once felt truly threatened during an encounter. The only time I'm nervous about the outcome of a fight is when the healing runs out and we're trading 1[W] + stat attacks with the monsters and it's a toss-up as to which side will sandpaper the other to -1 first.

What I wouldn't do for a little 3e-style imbalance. Give me some of that swinginess and lethality, please. The "outcome-based" monster design might make for balanced encounters, but they are bland and boring. Worse, the system discourages any sort of unbalanced encounter due to its existence and 4e monster design. In every fight, you're expected to win. If the DM picks a higher-level monster, you're not going to hit him reliably enough to win. If the DM picks a lower-level monster, he's not going to hit you reliably enough to pose a threat (not that he really posed a threat in the first place, but you know what I mean).

It's interesting because I see many proponents of 4e claim that the encounter building guidelines work very well... but I'm not sure exactly what that means. IMO, a challenging encounter as put forth by the DMG (with the rare exception of certain creatures) is rarely if ever actually "challenging". However since the DMG doesn't really define what easy, challenging or hard are in any meaningful way... It's hard to gauge just how well these gudielines actually work...


In fact I'd be curious to hear from some 4e fans on why they consider the 4e encounter guidelines to work so well. In other words what criteria are they judging them by?

EDIT: Maybe I should create a new thread for this...
 
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Encounter XP Budget as Cake Recipe:

Ingredients:

2 Orc Mauraders > 2 cups all-purpose flour
2 Orc Berserkers > 1 1/2 cups white sugar
5 Orc Minions > 1/2 cup shortening1 Orc Shaman > 1 cup milk
2 Worgs > 3 1/2 teaspoons baking powder
2 Orc Beastmasters > 1 teaspoon salt
2 Orc Axe Hurlers > 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
1 Orc Warlord > 3 eggs


Baking it up into something tasty:

Encounter Advice (How to use Strikers, Leaders, Artillery, Brutes, Soldiers, Terrain, Hazards) > How to Bake the Cake (Preparation, Mixture Order, Oven Temperature and Cooking Time)


Eyeball any of this stuff and you may get something different than a moist, proportioned, tasty, balanced, awesome orc-fest cake. If you want something with smaller proportions or with more orc frosting, just add THIS or take away THIS!

After you've baked enough orc cakes you will likely have all of these committed to memory.
 

After playing some more of 4e, I've decided that the combats are pretty boring. Every combat is the same: hit, hit, healing powers, hit, hit, monsters dead, PCs use healing surges. The monsters usually hit every round but don't do enough damage for anyone to care about. Monsters take forever to die and the group ends up grinding them down with at-wills once the battle is clearly won. I have never once felt truly threatened during an encounter. The only time I'm nervous about the outcome of a fight is when the healing runs out and we're trading 1[W] + stat attacks with the monsters and it's a toss-up as to which side will sandpaper the other to -1 first.

That to me sounds like you're using the Monster Manual 1 for monsters and not Monster Vault - even low level monsters are a whole lot meaner in general in MV. It also sounds as if your DM is making two textbook mistakes that the rulebooks don't emphasise enough.

To compare the difference in meanness between the two books, a level 1 kobold skirmisher in the MM1 does d8 damage and has a d6 sneak attack. The level 1 kobold skirmisher in Monster Vault does between d6+3 and d6+11 damage depending whether the slippery little bugger is dancing circles round you or you've shut him down. You are right that you can safely ignore d8 damage - but no one is able to ignore d6+11 damage at first level.



The first mistake is that 4e is a game of combined arms. Unless using solos you need more than one monster type and monster role per fight (with the sole exception of non-vanilla skirmishers). Artillery does +25% baseline damage at range and -25% baseline in melee - and both have very poor AC and hit points. Brutes and soldiers don't have ranged attacks but are nasty in combat. Artillery need a battle line in front of them.

Skirmishers deserve their own special note because they, to me, come in two types.

The first are vanilla skirmishers who have exactly the expected math, melee and ranged attacks, and very little special about them. Useful for making up the numbers with veterans. The second are the interesting ones which have high and low damage states - textbook would be a heroic tier monster with a 2d6 sneak attack when they have combat advantage.

But there are other conditions such as the Kobold Quickblade (the MV level 1 skirmisher) that does +2 damage for every square they have shifted so far this turn, and both have Shifty and an at will move action that lets them shift 3 (bumping their damage up from d6+3 to a possible d6+11). You shut down Quickblades by methods like dazing them, knocking them prone, or putting them into the fighter's Defender Aura - or anything else that cuts their move action, like throwing them off something or putting them into difficult terrain to slow down their shifting. Or anything else you can think of including throwing the wizard into the line to box the kobold in to make sure this level 1 skirmisher is doing d6+3 damage rather than d6+11 at will.

And deciding whether the monsters do low damage or high (which is around 66% higher than low damage) is decided by positioning, mobility, and tactics. Can you keep the artillery monsters in melee? They are doing low damage. If they can escape and shoot they are doing high. Can you shut down the variable skirmishers and stop them moving the way they want to (normally to sneak attack)? Low damage. If they get to move almost freely it's high damage. A level +1 encounter where the monsters are always allowed to do high damage and focus fire = dead PCs.

Out of curiosity, is the difference between a level 1 monster doing d6+3 damage and d6+11 swingy enough? And does it count when the size of the swing is determined by tactics rather than dice?



The second mistake for setting up combat in 4e and keeping it interesting (as well as combined arms) is to put terrain in. Most 4e PCs have some sort of forced movement powers and/or some form of mobility. Put a simple pit trap into a classic battle and people will shrug and step round the pit. Put it into a 4e battle and, due to the forced movement, you've changed the entire dynamic of the combat. If the fighter has Tide of Iron or the wizard Beguiling Strands, any monster who stands too near that pit is probably going to be pushed in. You've just changed the entire battle from a slugfest to the PCs and monsters dancing round trying to force each other into the hole - a fundamentally much more interesting situation. And make the terrain more interesting than a simple pit...



Does any of that help?

It's interesting because I see many proponents of 4e claim that the encounter building guidelines work very well... but I'm not sure exactly what that means. IMO, a challenging encounter as put forth by the DMG (with the rare exception of certain creatures) is rarely if ever actually "challenging".

In the Rules Compendium a hard encounter is defined as one two to four levels above the group's level. I don't expect a standard encounter to be that likely to kill PCs unless something goes badly wrong (hi there, completely out of position wizard) - otherwise the death rate would be absurd.

In fact I'd be curious to hear from some 4e fans on why they consider the 4e encounter guidelines to work so well. In other words what criteria are they judging them by?

EDIT: Maybe I should create a new thread for this...

That as long as I leave some terrain in I can get an interesting fight where the monsters seem to have a chance and one of my players worries "We're all going to die" by pulling out a by the book hard encounter.
 

Imaro

Legend
That to me sounds like you're using the Monster Manual 1 for monsters and not Monster Vault - even low level monsters are a whole lot meaner in general in MV.

I find it strange that in many of these discussions you tend to go to Monster Vault as the default Monster Manual. It's the 4th monster book created for 4e. I'm not sure I would expect people to be using it as their default monster book... especially since one would have to be willing to spend more money, invest in what was labelled as an essentials product (as well as pay for a ton of tokens you may or may not want) and have waited years after release of the core books in order to get it. I'm not saying you're wrong for bringing it up... but I also feel like you tend to gloss over those factors.
 

Imaro

Legend
In the Rules Compendium a hard encounter is defined as one two to four levels above the group's level. I don't expect a standard encounter to be that likely to kill PCs unless something goes badly wrong (hi there, completely out of position wizard) - otherwise the death rate would be absurd.

Well right now I am playing in a 4e camapign that has 5 regular attendants and we are at 5th level...as far as I can tell we regularly and easily trounce what would be labeled as hard encounters in the books and it has, at times, kind of frustrated our DM. It could be because of our party makeup (though we don't seem that different from the suggested makeup)... dedicated cleric hengeyokai, hybrid sorcerer/warlock drow with a multi-class in bard... hybrid shielding swordmage/wizard genasi cindersoul as a defender, a human slayer and an eleven rogue as our strikers.
 

I find it strange that in many of these discussions you tend to go to Monster Vault as the default Monster Manual. It's the 4th monster book created for 4e. I'm not sure I would expect people to be using it as their default monster book... especially since one would have to be willing to spend more money, invest in what was labelled as an essentials product (as well as pay for a ton of tokens you may or may not want) and have waited years after release of the core books in order to get it. I'm not saying you're wrong for bringing it up... but I also feel like you tend to gloss over those factors.

What is says is that when 4e was released, it was developed in literally half the time they allocated because Orcus was almost unplayably bad. The first wave of books for 4e had a lot of good ideas and were not properly playtested - and this is screamingly obvious in a number of places including the 4e Monster Manual 1 as well as the initial skill challenge rules where your probability of performing a complex skill challenge was actually higher than a simple one (whoever thought they were fit to print either should be fired or (knowing WotC) has been fired). On a recent rpg.net thread it's been agreed that the second most hated 4e book by 4e fans was the Monster Manual 1 - beaten only by the absolutely abysmal Keep on the Shadowfell (which I wouldn't give to an enemy).

There is not one single solo in the 4e Monster Manual 1 that you aren't better off throwing out and rebuilding from scratch, and with the Monster Manual 3 WotC fixed the underlying monster math. Monster Vault is basically a replacement Monster Manual 1 that actually works and I've said on another thread why I consider it the best monster manual ever produced for D&D (fluffwise and crunchwise) - and even the anti-essentials crowd IME uses it.

I've also mentioned before that there's a vast difference between 4e (2008) and 4e (2012). If you want to criticise 4e (2008) be my guest. The skill challenge rules suck, the monsters are big bags of impotent hit points that require guides to anti-grind, and a lot of the writing is uninspiring while if you have the right mind for the statblocks they may have been inspiring but didn't deliver. But that isn't what we play now. And if you want to criticise the 4e team for turning in a too early draft of 4e to the deadline rather than when it was ready I'm right there with you.

(4e development timeline: Started in June 2005, Orcus was binned and the real 4e was started in April 2006, and the working rules set was turned in on May 11 2007. Compare that to D&D Next!)
 

Imaro

Legend
What is says is that when 4e was released, it was developed in literally half the time they allocated because Orcus was almost unplayably bad. The first wave of books for 4e had a lot of good ideas and were not properly playtested - and this is screamingly obvious in a number of places including the 4e Monster Manual 1 as well as the initial skill challenge rules where your probability of performing a complex skill challenge was actually higher than a simple one (whoever thought they were fit to print either should be fired or (knowing WotC) has been fired). On a recent rpg.net thread it's been agreed that the second most hated 4e book by 4e fans was the Monster Manual 1 - beaten only by the absolutely abysmal Keep on the Shadowfell (which I wouldn't give to an enemy).

There is not one single solo in the 4e Monster Manual 1 that you aren't better off throwing out and rebuilding from scratch, and with the Monster Manual 3 WotC fixed the underlying monster math. Monster Vault is basically a replacement Monster Manual 1 that actually works and I've said on another thread why I consider it the best monster manual ever produced for D&D (fluffwise and crunchwise) - and even the anti-essentials crowd IME uses it.

I've also mentioned before that there's a vast difference between 4e (2008) and 4e (2012). If you want to criticise 4e (2008) be my guest. The skill challenge rules suck, the monsters are big bags of impotent hit points that require guides to anti-grind, and a lot of the writing is uninspiring while if you have the right mind for the statblocks they may have been inspiring but didn't deliver. But that isn't what we play now. And if you want to criticise the 4e team for turning in a too early draft of 4e to the deadline rather than when it was ready I'm right there with you.

(4e development timeline: Started in June 2005, Orcus was binned and the real 4e was started in April 2006, and the working rules set was turned in on May 11 2007. Compare that to D&D Next!)

Well I guess the question would be... if I didn't like the 4e released in 2008... why would I still be buying it in 2012? I think it's also complicatedd by 4e fans who swear essentials and the 4e released in 2008 are the same. I know there's a stigma around .5 editions... but if the game was that greatly improved... perhaps it would be better not to claim it's all the same game and that there was a point where the game was revised into a better set of rules.
 

B.T.

First Post
I find it strange that in many of these discussions you tend to go to Monster Vault as the default Monster Manual. It's the 4th monster book created for 4e. I'm not sure I would expect people to be using it as their default monster book... especially since one would have to be willing to spend more money, invest in what was labelled as an essentials product (as well as pay for a ton of tokens you may or may not want) and have waited years after release of the core books in order to get it. I'm not saying you're wrong for bringing it up... but I also feel like you tend to gloss over those factors.
The Monsters' Vault is the Monster Manual with all the errata applied. Mearls & Co. tacitly admitted that they didn't do the best job on MM1 and that the math was all wrong.
 

Obryn

Hero
Well I guess the question would be... if I didn't like the 4e released in 2008... why would I still be buying it in 2012?
Because it's not like it was unplayable. It was good, with some pretty big flaws - notably, grindy encounters. 4e now is better. Vastly better, because the errata had a purpose and fulfilled it. And as to your question, I think that was one of the biggest flaws on 4e's release and a vital component to its reception - it needed another solid year of testing. Because if you didn't like the 2008 releases, I can't imagine why you should have stuck around for it.

I think it's also complicatedd by 4e fans who swear essentials and the 4e released in 2008 are the same. I know there's a stigma around .5 editions... but if the game was that greatly improved... perhaps it would be better not to claim it's all the same game and that there was a point where the game was revised into a better set of rules.
This is far afield. But it's the same game because it's the same game, and monster math is the only fundamental part of the game that was substantially updated - and that wasn't even in Essentials, it was back around MM3.

Otherwise, it's both a supplement and a separate starting point. You can run an E-only game, or incorporate them. It's not like you can't use a PHB1 Fighter and a Slayer seamlessly at the same table.

-O
 

Well I guess the question would be... if I didn't like the 4e released in 2008... why would I still be buying it in 2012? I think it's also complicatedd by 4e fans who swear essentials and the 4e released in 2008 are the same. I know there's a stigma around .5 editions... but if the game was that greatly improved... perhaps it would be better not to claim it's all the same game and that there was a point where the game was revised into a better set of rules.

I don't know why you'd still be buying it in 2012 - but that doesn't mean that your experiences of 4e (2008) are an accurate reflection of 4e (2012) any more than watching a football team four years ago tells you how it will do now - especially if it had a team of all rookies at the time.

There is only one hard and fast revision of the rules - that's the monster manual math released as at the monster manual 3. With the only actually replaced product being the MM1 by Monster Vault. One odd thing about 4e is that it's a much better game "all in" than restricting yourself to the core three books plus a worldbook - something I don't believe to be true for any other edition of D&D. There is no clear point at which we can say 4e stopped promising to be a really good cinematic fantasy RPG and became one what it promised (although the MM3 and DSCC are the mark if there is one).

As for why there wasn't a 4.5, don't ask me. Possibly the errata.

The Monsters' Vault is the Monster Manual with all the errata applied. Mearls & Co. tacitly admitted that they didn't do the best job on MM1 and that the math was all wrong.

It also has completely redesigned monsters - especially the solos. It's not just a "with errata" version - it's a "redesign with years more experience".
 

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