D&D 5E December Package is here, it was about time!!

[Grimmjow]

was hoping for a legacy system to play with in this packet but im okay with waiting to see how that'll work. hoping to see the classes get more abilities to pick from as they level up but again can wait for this. Glad to have my red dragon in the bestiary although the dragons should have things that make them different from each other other then color and breath weapon damage. Again im fine waiting.

Feats look great, make you feel really different now. The skill dice are fine. I do like the last rule with crits (+1d6s)

All-in-all good Christmas present from WotC

 

[dd.stevenson]

First impression--I feel like there's a lot of fiddliness in this packet. Too many keywords--I can't read the ability descriptions without referring back to the condition master list. Still, I guess it's better than what I have now with Pathfinder (except of course with them I can quickly cross-reference things by googling the SRD).

Reading this packet doesn't get me excited about D&D. If WotC published it today, I'd probably go play the DCC RPG or OSRIC or maybe even stick with Pathfinder instead.

 

[Kaodi]

I am glad that feats that grant cantrips allow you to use them at will again, even if the list of ones you can take with it has been shortened.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I am not pleased that Clerics get Expertise Dice.

 

[Sonny]

I am not pleased that Clerics get Expertise Dice.

They don't. They get martial damage dice. That's all the dice do - bonus damage, no maneuvers whatsoever. Much like extra dice in 4e get added for weapons as every class hits certain levels. We knew damage was going to have to scale up for every character to make up for the to hit bonus staying flat, and that's how it's being done. I suppose they can just give them a flat damage bonus, so people don't confuse them.

 

[LightPhoenix]

They don't. They get martial damage dice.

In short:

The fighter’s expertise dice are now called martial damage dice, and the dice progression has changed.

Martial Damage Dice: You gain a single martial damage die, a d6. As you gain levels, you gain additional martial damage dice, as noted on the Cleric table.

 

[Sonny]

In short:

Martial Damage dice is not simply the old expertise dice renamed (despite the notes). martial damage = just extra damage. Martial damage + combat expertise = old expertise dice

If you don't like Clerics getting bonus damage fine. But it's not like they'll be able to do what fighters do with their dice.

 

[Rune]

The cleric needs some way to keep up with melee damage in order to stay relevant. Otherwise, the warpriest would be a very sub-optimal build. Giving them the same damage dice that other martial classes get will make things easier when it comes to getting feats that grant maneuvers, or when multi-classing.

 

[Gorgoroth]

I like it, especially the dual wield feat, although, to be honest, I don't think it's worth dual wielding damage-wise until you get some nifty magic weapons that add 2d10 to each hit with each weapon.

Anyone care to run the math? If we compare, say, -2, -2 with a battleaxe and a handaxe on a level 1 fighter dwarf, say with 18 str, that's +3/+3 to hit, and 1d10 / 1d8 damage with no bonuses. How does that compare to 2d6 with a greataxe and no to-hit penalty, with the full str mod.

hmm, let's see, if a +5 with the greataxe gives 2d6 (== ~7 damage) + 1d6 martial dice + 4 str, that's 14.5, let's say has a 70% chance to hit a typical orc (not sure what their acs are at now...too much stuff to read), that's 10.15 DPR overall. (if my calculations are correct).

Now if we compare that to 60% chance to do 1d10 and 1d8, that's 6 dpr + another 84% chance to get off at least one hit and land his d6 martial damage. 8.94 average dpr, with probably less swinginess. 9.54 damage with two battle axes (extra .6 due to 1d8 -> 1d10 going up from a handaxe to a battleaxe). Still not as good, but getting there.

Now let's make it more interesting, and take whirlwind attack for an extra attack instead of the bonus d6 damage, and add in cleave with the greataxe. It gets tougher to model now. I even wonder if it might be worthwhile doing cleave+whirlwind with a halberd instead of a greataxe, so that you can cleave an opponent farther away (too bad you can't whirlwind reaching 10' with a halberd, that would be sick). I imagine lots of scenarios where you hit even up to three times per round when heavily swarmed. It's probably more efficient to just use battleaxe + shield, it's only 1.5 damage less than a greataxe. I guess +1 ac is worth a lot more than 1 damage when your average is around 9.1 at level 1 with a one-handed weapon. I really like that whirlwind attack though, just gets better and better, your chance of proc'ing cleave gets insane, you'll be dropping orcs left and right. As a good dwarf should!

Are there any maneuver combos such as disarm that might make it a worthwhile trick to dual wield at level 1? to nearly guarantee it lands each round ( +4 from str, +1 from fighter. 55% to hit AC 15). bah I'm tired, sure there are some of you out there better at those stats than me.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Here's my initial reactions after skimming through the new packet.

Likes:

* Expertise Dice are now d6s, leading to a consistent and more sensible progression, unlike the bizarre progression of the previous packet. I would prefer the progression was much more gradual and spread out more evenly rather than quickly going up to 6d6 at level 10 and then stopping, but it's still a step in the right direction.

* Rogues no longer seem to be gimp fighters.

* Clerics have several channel divinity options instead of just turn undead.

* You can cast arcane spells in armor if you're proficient with it.

* At-will cantrips are back and damaging cantrips now scale.

* Rituals can be cast without spending gp.

* Teleport can only send you to a teleportation circle, and greater teleport has a chance of failure.

* Using a creature's True Name makes some spells more powerful. Cool.

Dislikes:

* Skill Dice.

* The Skill list is still the 3.x skill list with a couple minor differences. Yuck.

* Characters still only get 4 skills, which are chosen for them by their background, and never get any more skills after that.

* Characters don't get any feats after 9th level. Seriously, WotC? I only get 4 feats EVER?

* Fighters don't get any new maneuvers after level 10.

* Wizards can't use rituals from their spellbook anymore, only spells they've prepared. This takes away what was the best thing about ritual casting!

* Some spells are still using the awful HP threshold mechanic. Worse, some of them are instant death spells.

* There are far too many spell choices, but too few spell slots per day. And I'm sure we haven't even seen all of the spells yet.

* Alot of spells use expensive material components, something I've always hated.

* Martial Damage Bonuses. Martial Damage dice are already overpowered enough, characters don't need to get a +20 to damage on top of that! Good grief.

* Martial character damage leaves spellcasters in the dust. Wizard cantrips, at their highest level, deal 4d10 damage (avg. 22). A high level fighter deals [W] (let's say d8 for the sake of example) +5 +6d6 +20 (avg. 50.5) damage, and that's not even including a magic weapon! Even meteor swarm, a 9th level spell (of which even the mightiest wizard gets ONE per day), deals 12d6 (avg. 42) damage! Sure, it hits multiple creatures, but come on! When fighters are hitting harder than meteor swarms every round of every day, playing a blaster wizard or "laser cleric" isn't going to be fun in the least.