How do you reconcile hit points?

[Manbearcat]

Seriously, if you cut yourself shaving, do you lose even one hit point? Even as a normal man, are you in any significant danger of death if you get a paper cut, or hit your thumb with a hammer while putting up a picture, or sit on a thumb tack (set aside the possibility of infection and tetanus, etc. for the moment and focus on just the physical tramua, okay)? Or even if all of the above happen to you? In my view, a person could be covered all over with minor cuts, bruises and scrapes and have not lost even one physical hit point, and I imagine a high-level character who has lost most (but not all) of his hit points will look something like that.

A couple of Wednesdays ago during basketball, a buddy of mine whacked me in the eye trying to block my shot as I went down the lane and went up for a layup. Blood spattered (about a 1 inch opening), eye went fuzzy for a bit (maybe everyone had partial concealment (save ends)), and I wore a black eye for a week and change. During that few hours I also took a shot to my tender bits, slightly rolled my left ankle and took an elbow to the throat. That may sound like a lot but that sort of deal is pretty common. I'm all but certain I suffered no HP damage (even with the eye). I could have played on indefinitely and taken more of the same.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

By the way, I'm not being argumentative just for the sake of obstructionism. As I wrote in the OP, I'm pursuing this more or less out of boredom. I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk, and I'm sorry if it comes across badly. This is a mental exercise for me.

I sympathize with your boredom, and I hope I’m not coming across as pushy. Like you, I can’t help but think about this kind of thing, and the ‘magic force field’ explanation is the only one that consistently satisfies my in-game immersion.

Tequila Sunrise: That works, if we presume that the healing skill includes a mystical sense even for people who aren't spell casters.

I mean, if a person with healing magics can sense life force, it kind of makes sense. But for Bob the Farmer to do it? At that point everyone in the world is psychic, and that's a place I don't think I want to go.

How does your healing house rule work? Does it allow the healer to assess HP from a distance, or does he need to be adjacent (able to touch) the target? If the former, then yeah I can see that being hard to swallow. But again, it’s not a psychic or a magic thing to the in-game characters; it’s just how their world works. Life energy radiates from everyone as a kind of ‘background noise,’ and all it takes is a bit of practice to ‘hear’ its intensity…if the healer knows where to focus his attention. (You can’t make a heal check to discern the presence of hidden creatures.)

If the healer has to touch the target to assess hp, then sensing life energy isn’t any more psychic than taking someone’s pulse. In fact, you can describe life energy as a second underlying beat in a character’s pulse; like the underlying melody of a song.

Odd observation: The basic Healing Potion in 4e, if I recall correctly, does nothing that a character can't do by themselves: It trips a Healing Surge. It's only real use is that it allows you to use more than one Healing Surge in a combat. Normally you're only entitled to Second Wind once per fight. Kind of pathetic, for a magic item, when you think about it.

Agreed, especially with RAW potions only restoring a flat number of hit points. Which, unless you're a squishy-type or you're using a very higher-level potion, is assuredly less than your surge value.

 

[Libramarian]

I rationalize hp a little bit in both directions: high level chars are better at reducing incoming lethal damage into nonlethal, but they're also capable of taking more damage before their defenses are down and the next blow is deadly. I think higher level chars should take longer to heal to some degree, so I don't like totally proportional heals.

I'm sorry, but it breaks my verisimilitude and immersion for a Fighter to have a vastly longer recovery time than the Wizard. Mechanics are the physics of the world after all, and broken mechanics mean a broken world. Pretending it isn't so isn't a solution.

This is part of why I prefer 4E for a more immersive roleplaying experience. Less need to pretend that broken game mechanics don't undermine the world.

"Are you being sarcastic dude?"
"I don't even know anymore..."

 

[timASW]

I've solved the HP healing conundrum with a simple houserule ever since 2e AD&D. Healing spells and resting scales with target level, not caster level.

Healing spells heal 1 HP per target level, per spell level; so that cure light wounds heals 1 per target level and cure serious heals 2 per target level, for instance.

Healing naturally heals 1 HP per day per character level+ Con bonus.

Problem solved.

What actual damage it does is pretty much always narrated as some form of physical harm even if its something like a weapon being mainly blocked to where doing bruising or very minor cuts rather then leaving gaping wounds because the target is better at defending himself. Although higher level characters are certainly also narrated as being able to keep going with really serious injuries that would absolutely put a regular warrior down for the count.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Understand HP isn't designed to be realistic and instead designed to be easy to keep track of (and manage) during game play.

If you are willing to use a more realistic but more cumbersome health system, feel free to do so.

 

[steenan]

I use three different approaches, depending on what game I play and what is the playstyle the group agreed on:

1. HPs as "characters are just that tough". Completely not realistic, but fun. Yes, I have five arrows stuck in my chest and my head is half-split with an axe, but I just grit my teeth and keep fighting. I'll care about the wounds when I have time for that.
This works well in games where magic is the only way of regaining HPs reasonably quickly and when we aim for slightly humorous style.

2. HPs have nothing to do with wounds, they are abstract. Luck, stamina or whatever "plot armor" fits in given situation. As long as I have some HPs left, I haven't been seriously hit (or, in 4e, I'm hit once when I'm bloodied and then again when I go below zero).
This works best in games where HPs may be recovered quickly without external aid, but getting to zero has potential long-lasting consequences. It's also my preferred approach.

3. Just don't think too much about it/ handwave it. I don't like it and prefer games where it isn't necessary - but sometimes it's the best way when we want to use a game that has poorly implemented HPs, but is fun in other areas.

 

[Greenfield]

Tequila Sunrise: I play the Healing skill as a skill, rather than as a power. That is, you have to examine the person, or at least observe closely. The "Sense Life Force" is one I'd never actually considered, in fact.

Can people detect Undead, such as a Vampire masquerading as a living human, by observing the lack of "life force" in your game? Or do active undead just have a slightly different flavor? Just curious...

I've always treated healing skill like First Aid training. In the real world, the killer from most serious injuries is shock. So stop the bleeding, elevate the feet, keep them warm and try to keep them awake if you can. In game, we call that "stabilizing".

Assessing the damage usually amounts to checking for blood loss, observing depth and number of wounds, etc. If you were able to observe the injuries, you can get an idea of how many hit points they have left. If not then you get a percentage, since that shallow flesh wound could be a slight nick on a low level character or a major wound on a high level one. The cut looks the same in either case.

Hence the paradox...

 

[dkyle]

Are you being sarcastic dude?"
"I don't even know anymore..."

Nope. Co-opting some words and phrases more commonly used by those attacking 4E, but I do truly believe that bad mechanics are detrimental to roleplaying, that 4E has much better mechanics than any other edition (including its healing mechanics), and thus is more amenable to roleplaying.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Tequila Sunrise: I play the Healing skill as a skill, rather than as a power. That is, you have to examine the person, or at least observe closely. The "Sense Life Force" is one I'd never actually considered, in fact.

Well I hope I've given you some tasty food for thought, then.

(Oh, and I've been using 'target' for lack of a better term; not because I imagine you using the heal skill as a power.)

Can people detect Undead, such as a Vampire masquerading as a living human, by observing the lack of "life force" in your game? Or do active undead just have a slightly different flavor? Just curious...

Most certainly not! Because 1) hp are hp whether they're a human's or a vampire's, and 2) I like my vampires sneaky! If every Joe Shmoe with a healing bonus could tell the difference between life energy and 'unlife' energy, vampires'd be a lot less scary, no?

I've always treated healing skill like First Aid training. In the real world, the killer from most serious injuries is shock. So stop the bleeding, elevate the feet, keep them warm and try to keep them awake if you can. In game, we call that "stabilizing".

Assessing the damage usually amounts to checking for blood loss, observing depth and number of wounds, etc. If you were able to observe the injuries, you can get an idea of how many hit points they have left. If not then you get a percentage, since that shallow flesh wound could be a slight nick on a low level character or a major wound on a high level one. The cut looks the same in either case.

Hence the paradox...

Yeah, it's one of D&D's oddities. I like my life energy explanation because, while it may be initially hard to swallow, it doesn't keep intruding into one's immersion once one has modified their fantasy comfort zone.

The comfort zone of most D&D players is 'medieval reality with elves and spellcasters,' with a clear distinction between a 'realistic' reality and certain characters who are allowed to ignore realistic ideals by virtue of being magical. I've expanded my comfort zone into 'medieval fantasy with elves and spellcasters,' with everyone being a little bit 'magical' because it serves it immersion.

Whereas trying to rationalize hit points in the context of real world injury and fatigue is like trying to dam a river with mud. You can more-or-less make it work most of the time, if you don't think about it too hard...at least until one of many corner-cases comes up and breaks your immersion.

 

[Luce]

A sword blow that cuts the commoner nearly in half becomes a minor bruise or shallow gash on the hardened veteran because he knows how to move, how to turn the edge or give with the blow, how to minimize damage. The sword blow was just as good in either case, but the fighter managed to turn what should have been a disemboweling strike into a mere flesh wound.

That all makes sense, even if the degree to which it can be taken stretches credibility.

The paradox is that the 10th level fighter is also 25 times harder to heal than the 1st level Wizard.

A deep cut on the Wizard represents two, maybe three hit points of damage. A cut of equal severity on the fighter represents somewhere between fifty and seventy five hit points.

One is healed casually with Cure Light, while the other will take several castings of Cure Critical.

Left to themselves, the Wizard will heal naturally in two or three days (pretty impressive for a near fatal injury). The fighter will take months.

So how do you handle the apparent contradiction? That the toughest, healthiest human being you've ever known takes months to recover from an injury that the weakest nerd in the world bounces back from practically over night?

I have a different interpretation, high level adventurers actually do take more physical damage before they are incapacitated.
Lets take a simple example, blocking a hook to the head. (for this example disregarding all other different and improvable ways such as evading, slipping in, using a shield, back flips etc)
An inexperienced combatant will block with his face, the fight netting him a broken nose and a concision.
An (more) experienced will be using his hands, forearms, shoulders (may be even finding away to use his feet if skilled enough) by the time he is finally defeated he will have several of the following: jammed fingers, broken and dislocated bones, torn ligaments and will look like he had been falling on his face down a ravine (lots of bruises and cuts) since it would likely take several hits thanks to a combination of rolling with the punches and thicker neck muscles. It would take significantly more time to recover.
In other words the difference between 1st round K.O. in an armature and 12th round K.O. in a title match.

Edit: Forgot to add, some of the damage may be psychological (such as developing punch shyness) Once the fighter is a bad ass and he knows it, it may take time to recover after having his stuffing beat out of him)