4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.

You mean they were so scared of 4e replicating the edition that haemoherraged interest (seriously, check the google search metrics) that they took the perfectly sensible step to not fire their fanbase for the few that might possibly come back if Wizards of the Coast stopped getting money from the people that were actually playing 4e?

They might have been close - but they made the perfectly sensible decision not to blow their own leg off and have everyone who was happy that the fighter actually got some love and almost as much versatility as the wizard drop the game in disgust.

And yet here we are having spent 2012 talking about and playtesting an edition of D&D that won't even be in print until 2014. Seems WotC was damned if they did, damned if they didn't.

And I fail to see how they'd fire their fanbase. I'm assured by ALL 4e players that Essentials and Core mixes perfect with no hiccups whatsoever. You can have slayers right next to Invokers and Warlords and theirs nary an issue. So (unlike 3.5) you could mix the two versions, not unlike AD&D 1e and 2e mixes well.

WotC REALLY needed a new PHB/DMG/MM. The Essentials books were clever, but poorly arranged consisting of too many books to get a game going. (I need the RC, one or both Heroes books, and if the DM the DM kit and Monster Vault). It should have used Essentials as the new core and gone from there. I'm shocked they didn't; in 2010, I was convinced it was going to be the basis for 5e, like how Bo9S was the trial balloon for 4e.

And I wouldn't put much stock in Google Search metrics. I'd be far more ashamed of the failures of the D&D Minis line, Gleemax, most of the online tools, and 2012 book product line that all happened. We can argue rightly how good 4e was as a game, but from a sales point, it was pretty miserable.
 

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...A sorcerer that didn't use ADEU...

Note how I said "A subtle sorcerer origin", a sorcerer more focussed on charm, manipulation and utility than "fry the hell out of the enemy", AEDU wasn't a particular complaint. (Though the ability to use powers more than once could have emulated the feel of the previous known sorcerer)
 

I still hold onto my hypothesis that two (likely real) things hurt D&D 4e more than anything else:

1) Incoherency within the editorial team or process. Incoherency between the editorial teams' understanding of the 4e vision and the game designers' actual vision.

2) Either too many cooks in the kitchen of the design team or the unwillingness (fear?) to explicitly canvass design intent at initial release in the summer of 2008.


A simple look at PHB1, DMG1 and DMG2 (released only 15 months after the initial release of the system) reveals all kinds of inconsistencies.

In PHB1, on page 9 and 10, you have the "How Do You Play" section which is obviously meant to introduce new players to standard operating procedures and reinforce the same to tenured players. Here it tells you to immerse and be your character (advocating Actor Stance) and then goes on to canvass:

Combat Encounters: Standard, neutral text which span all editions.

Noncombat Encounters: Here we get reinforcement of classic D&D play; Deadly traps, difficult puzzles, other obstacles, etc. Sometimes you'll use character skills, clever use of magic, your own wits (puzzles). Social interactions; persuade, bargain, obtain info from DM controlled sources etc.

Exploration, Taking Your Turn and Example of Play: Here we REALLY, REALLY get classic, pulp D&D play promoted and illustrated as the default. Everything you can think of in classic play is nailed down here from DM rulings (DM having the final say), classic dungeon-crawling and open world, sand-boxing; Move down hallways, following passages, listening at doors, checking doors/chests for locks/traps, break down doors, search for treasure, explore for pulling levers, pushing statues, moving furnishings, picking locks, jury-rigging traps, etc, etc. It even promotes the classic mundane versus powerful magic paradigm; "can't punch through 3-inch thick iron doors with your bare hands - not unless you have powerful magic to help you out!" And then we have the, limited (obviously introductory stuff like we did when we were kids) very pulpy example of exploratory play.

All of this instruction really, really looks to be aimed at introducing extremely novice players (very young kids like when many of us started) to classic D&D exploratory play. I wonder if this is yet another reason why many felt turned off and felt condescended to/patronized. Perhaps the at the editorial meetings, they felt the best way forward was to write to the extremely novice, young players...and that was the editorial voice they used for much of the introductory text of the initial books.

Then you have an entire book of classes filled with, primarily, closed-scene (encounters), protagonist powers. These powers span all manner of stance; from Actor (which was tacitly and implicitly advocated in the How Do You Play and Making Characters sections - "your avatar" or "you") to Author to Director. We then get Rituals and its rules, which any class can take, which expressley are "extra-encounter" exploratory/interaction play-driven.


Then we get DMG 1 which is all over the place in editorial tone and direction. Its tone modulates from the "FUN!" section whereby it attempts to respect all playstyles and say there is no such thing as "badwrongfun", whatever you and your players agree on is fun is...well...fun...so do that! Then it goes on to advocate classic D&D exploratory play. Then it goes on to tell you to to "Get to the fun!" and gloss over the mundane, skip boring "sand-boxesque" details and get to the heroic action. And then it goes back to trying to modulate the tone and be a proponent of classic D&D interests when it circles the wagons of the classic D&D cultural meme (from 2e onward) and ACTUALLY SAY METAGAMING IS SUBVERSIVE (p15)...4E...averse to the metagame? What? Then it goes on to equivocate in championing classically Indie interests that are metagame friendly in the conflict resolution, scene-framing tool of Skill Challenges (which anyone who has any Indie-Gaming experience immediately knew what this was). Except it does it with just enough noncommittal, nebulous instruction to confuse many (new and old) users into not fully getting the why and how.

Then we get lots of Dungeon material clarifying Skill Challenge whys and hows (failing forward, etc) and its clear Indie roots and whys and hows.

Then we get the DMG2 with Laws. This was an extraordinarily focused (design vision and editorial) book. It was wonderfully elegant, savvy and honest. It fully discloses the metagame friendly, scene-framing power of 4e from collective storytelling and tangible, drama rewards to incentivize it, to branching, to cooperative arcs and world-building, how to compose vignettes and closed scenes, most of the whys and hows of Skill Challenges (from stakes to composition to failing forward to framing the scene and preparing and setting ultimate outcomes). The entire book unabashedly, explicitly advocated a Narrative creative agenda of PC protagonism and co-authorship of the fiction with the players.


To this day, I still don't know if it was 1 or 2 or both. None of it mattered to me because I knew the product instantly from the Gamist/Narrativist Creative Agenda at its core framework of PC protagonism, fiction co-authorship, metagame friendliness, and scene-framing default playstyle. It was quite clear looking at the meat and potatoes of the system. However, the PHB1 and DMG1 content (resolution tools, PC resources, advice and the editorializing) was absolutely all over the place. Left hand; I'd like you to meet the Right Hand.


All of that being said. I still hold that you absolutely can, 100 % use the ruleset to reproduce classic D&D. You just have to be finicky in power selection and do a few things slightly differently than the default playstyle suggests...which is pretty much the case for every table in the history of D&D preceding 4e...but somehow 4e doesn't get that same "hey, drift it to meet your tastes" treatment.
 

I still hold onto my hypothesis that two (likely real) things hurt D&D 4e more than anything else:

1) Incoherency within the editorial team or process. Incoherency between the editorial teams' understanding of the 4e vision and the game designers' actual vision.

2) Either too many cooks in the kitchen of the design team or the unwillingness (fear?) to explicitly canvass design intent at initial release in the summer of 2008.

...snip lots of relevant, interesting stuff..

Which is probably why my four total experiences with 4e were monumentally frustrating, to the point that I didn't even care to "sort out" what was actually going on "behind the curtain" with the rules. Here I was, solidly weaned on 3e's gamist / simulationist bent, suddenly wondering why the GM I was playing with wasn't producing anything remotely resembling an interesting narrative, and as soon as the "action" on the grid stopped, everything seemed to grind to a halt, or the other players started getting impatient to "start the next battle." The occasionally more interesting combats were far too little benefit compared to my GM's sudden inability to suss together how all of these various indie RPG parts fit together into the World's Most Popular Roleplaying Game (to say nothing of the "dissociative" powers effects poking out all over the place).
 

I think the whole no roleplaying argument is crap. I did an experiment a while back where I ran the dragonlance modules concurrently using 4th edition(with converting) and 3rd edition. I used 2 separate groups and alternated playing. You want to know what was different from edition to edition? Nothing. The game basically ran the same way with both editions. No one was stifled on any kind of roleplaying with 4th edition. That's just my 2 cents.
 



I have found the essentials a very good alternative to the previous 4e material - or as a supplement. I think the essential characters will give me a slightly quicker game, so I think I will try to run a pure essentials game the next time I DM 4e. If I don't skip right to 5e that is. ;)
 

And yet here we are having spent 2012 talking about and playtesting an edition of D&D that won't even be in print until 2014. Seems WotC was damned if they did, damned if they didn't.

2012 was almost ineitable from the production model of 4e. Basically they ran out of stuff to publish for it; WotC publish mostly crunch and there's very little to do under the 4e paradigm that the crunch isn't out there for either in a book or in Dragon. (It's my view that 4e needs precisely four more books; the Birthright setting, the Spelljammer setting, a Spelljammer Monster Manual, and an Epic Level handbook. All four products are ... niche. There's also an Unearthed Arcana, Maths, and Hacks book). Now they could have tried TSR-style shovelware, but one of the attractive things about 4e books is that almost without exception they are high quality and add significantly to the game.

And I fail to see how they'd fire their fanbase. I'm assured by ALL 4e players that Essentials and Core mixes perfect with no hiccups whatsoever.

This would be a definition of all I am unfamilliar with. It doesn't include either [MENTION=55066]Dice4Hire[/MENTION] or [MENTION=8900]Tony[/MENTION]Vargas for instance. And you aren't a 4e fan - the reception to Essentials was ... about as mixed as the reception to the book of Weaboo Fitan Majik.

And to use an analogy, 3.5 had the brilliant and contraversial Tome of Battle: The Book of 9 Swords. This works with the rest of 3.5 - but what do you think that the reaction of the fanbase would have been to the idea that every single subsequent book should be in the style of the Tome of Battle? Having something there as an option is completely different from making it the dominant paradigm.

but poorly arranged consisting of too many books to get a game going. (I need the RC, one or both Heroes books, and if the DM the DM kit and Monster Vault).

I'm pretty sure you don't need the RC for anything. It's just a useful reference guide.

It should have used Essentials as the new core and gone from there. I'm shocked they didn't; in 2010, I was convinced it was going to be the basis for 5e, like how Bo9S was the trial balloon for 4e.

Given that the Bo9S was not a trial balloon for 4e, this logic doesn't hold. What the Bo9S was was the salvageable parts of Orcus - a planned 4e they worked on for 10 months before deciding it was horrible and starting almost entirely from scratch, meaning 4e was developed in 14 months rather than the 24 it was allocated. The Bo9S was put out rather than let Orcus go entirely to waste.

And I wouldn't put much stock in Google Search metrics. I'd be far more ashamed of the failures of the D&D Minis line, Gleemax, most of the online tools, and 2012 book product line that all happened. We can argue rightly how good 4e was as a game, but from a sales point, it was pretty miserable.

From a sales point, DDI is worth a lot making the whole thing profitable by taking in a lot of money for very low overheads. Hell, the DDI subscribers now are bankrolling the DDN development team. Because 4e has DDI it has a guaranteed and predictable income meaning we don't have the TSR or 3.X problem of warehouses full of books that take up space and have sunk costs but don't sell. It (and the comparable Pathfinder subscription model) is much healthier for a company than anything either 3.X or Lorraine Williams' TSR managed. Gleemax? A murder/suicide by the lead developer will cause problems. Although that's no excuse for the VTT never appearing.
 

They might have been close - but they made the perfectly sensible decision not to blow their own leg off and have everyone who was happy that the fighter actually got some love and almost as much versatility as the wizard drop the game in disgust.

Yeah, that would have been me! :devil: I certainly wouldn't have bought/used Essentials materials if it meant no PHB ('Weaponmaster') Fighters anymore! :cool:
 

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