4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.

[Nemesis Destiny]

No, you're right about that, but the PH3 section on Hybrids is pretty explicit about that being the case. There's a big sidebar about how this can result in crappy or overpowered characters. Kind of like when you type about:config into Firefox, and it pops up a big warning.

Hybrids are strictly optional, not allowed at organized play events (with good reason), and really only necessary in some very corner cases. That said, I do allow some hybrid concepts in my games, but they all have to be brought to me first.

As a footnote: Whew! It took me two days to wade through this thread. Some good discussion going on here - I kept expecting it to erupt into edition wars and get locked, but it never did. Some minor disturbances from a few liars and trolls (or lying trolls), but kudos for keeping cool, everyone.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I don't quite see how this works.

If the other PCs continue adventuring in the meantime, in effect the player has to skip sessions or run a PC that is different from the one s/he wants to run.

If the time just gets handwaved, what's the cost?

If the GM decides that in the handwaved time that passes, event XYZ happen that render the players' previous engagment with the ingame situation irrelevant, how is that helping anything? If it wrecks the game, nothing achieved. And conversely if the players don't mind, then what was the cost for multi-classing?

If the idea is simply to give the GM fiat power over PC multi-classing, and to give the GM licence to impose some story-derived cost on the PC as a result (eg you trained as a cleric, and now you have a new suite of religious enemies), I think the rules would do better to talk about it in these metagame terms.

(Note it's different in a system that expressly has mechanics for passing time - so in RQ or BW, if one PC is training to boost some particular skill, there are rules that allow the other PCs to spend that time profitably in other ways - eg in BW, by making money working. But D&D doesn't have such rules - the only way to mechanically advance your PC is by actually playing the game.)

It's interesting, if you peruse the 1e DMG you quickly find out what Gygax's theory was. Everything was based on strict time keeping and troupe play. I don't know about 3.x, but AD&D certainly had elaborate rules for passing time, making money, etc. as did various incarnations of B/X/etc. The idea was that you would play an entourage of characters, henchmen, etc. If it took 3 weeks for the wizard to go do X, then you were stuck playing the fighter for 3 weeks of campaign time. Given that the game was largely a player driven sandbox the player was making real choices by spending time offstage. The other PCs would get to go loot some new tomb or whatever and your wizard might miss out on the awesome wand of fireballs.

Of course we didn't play that sort of game for very long in any of my groups either, so as you say, time became a bit of a non-cost. 4e clearly leaves it largely in the hands of the DM to do something with if he/she sees fit. I doubt very many people still do troupe play, so that leaves time being pretty much a plot fixer element for the DM.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with this up until the point they introduced hybrids. You have to know what you're doing when it comes to hybrids because just picking two classes that seem like they would mesh or sound cool together does not work out all the time.

True, and I think Nemesis' comments about it are correct. Honestly, I haven't even thought much about hybrids in actual play. Nobody has ever shown much interest in them. I've had a few players that delved into the character rules enough to have some knowledge that they existed and perhaps they considered trying one out I suppose, but in general I guess my players aren't that hard core. In fact those that played 3.5 AFAIK barely bothered to MC in that game either from what my sister tells me (she's the default 3.5 DM).

It is cool that the system is there, but I suspect it was included as much to satisfy critics of 4e in "yes you actually can build that special snowflake" than as something very many people thought would be real useful to many players. There are of course some few that do love it and play with it, but being stuck off in the back of PHB3 it isn't like 3.x's system where it was presented as something you just routinely did with most characters.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I've played with a guy for many years that loved hybrid rules purely from their ability to be exploited, much as that same gamer would do when multiclassing under 3.x. The two systems (3.x MC vs 4e hybrids) share a lot in common; both are easy to break in either direction and appeal to two sets of gamers for distinct reasons. Additionally, the reasoning for supporting them is the same.

As many proponents of either system will use 'organic character growth' or the ability to play that special snowflake as a reason to use either system, as will use it because of its ability to create broken characters, and in both cases, you can't have one without the other.

3.x tried to balance things by adding XP costs for excessive multiclassing, but all that does is set the parameters for gaming the system - obviously it was still possible and easy to do for those with the inclinations.

4e tried to balance it by making it a huge sacrifice of class features, but because of the way some classes were designed, this was only partly successful, leaving them, in the end, to say, "this is potentially broken; use it at your own peril."

At least they were up front about it.

 

[TwoSix]

Of course we didn't play that sort of game for very long in any of my groups either, so as you say, time became a bit of a non-cost. 4e clearly leaves it largely in the hands of the DM to do something with if he/she sees fit. I doubt very many people still do troupe play, so that leaves time being pretty much a plot fixer element for the DM.

Kind of a shame, actually. I was thinking the other idea that a 3e game would be fun where everyone had 2 characters, a spellcaster and a mundane. Have a set-up where there's some sort of bond between the two, like an Aes Sedai and Warder, or a Pathfinder summoner class with its Eidolon, or druid and animal companion (a sentient beast as the mundane character would be fun!), or wizard - familiar.

Make it like in Ars Magica somewhat with the wizard and the grogs. The mundane characters can go out when the wizards are busy, sometimes there's wizard business that has to be attended to, sometimes the party's split up, and sometimes everyone goes together. Could be fun, I think.

 

[sigfile]

Hybrids are strictly optional, not allowed at organized play events (with good reason), and really only necessary in some very corner cases.

Not allowed at organized play events? They're fully kosher for LFR, and even the current Encounters season allows them.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Not allowed at organized play events? They're fully kosher for LFR, and even the current Encounters season allows them.

I don't do LFR, but that would be a first for Encounters. All the other seasons they've been restricted to material from Essentials. Perhaps Lair Assault has always allowed them? Not sure, not interested in LA.

I'd also read previously that they were not allowed in most Living campaigns, but I don't participate in them myself, so I stand corrected on that, I guess. Is this a recent change? Perhaps the source I read that from was incorrect.

 

[sigfile]

This is the first season they've officially opened Encounters up beyond Essentials-only. That's a bit of an important point, though - it wasn't Hybrids (specifically) that were disallowed. Anything pre-Essentials or not directly related to the current release (Heroes of Shadow, Heroes of the Feywild, etc) at the time was disallowed. LFR and Lair Assault have always allowed Hybrids.

That still doesn't mean they're always a good idea, mind you, but the players are free to to a little bonkers.

I've no idea about the other organized play campaigns. Maybe someone a bit more familiar with their character creation rules (Alpha?) could speak to those.