4th edition, The fantastic game that everyone hated.

D'karr

Adventurer
I would really like to see an effort made to preserve the flexibility and simplicity of the 3e multiclass system while eliminating mnag of its excesses.

I agree. I liked the flexibility of 3.x multiclassing, but loathed the problems it created. I've modified 4e multiclassing to a level that works for my table. However, multiclassing is always going to be a problematic system to handle with base mechanics only because tastes as to what multiclassing should be able to provide are going to differ widely.

I think the best solution, but also the most complicated, would be a scaling system. One where the base multiclassing is limited, then you can add scalability that allows it to be as permissive as the group wants.
 

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I agree. I liked the flexibility of 3.x multiclassing, but loathed the problems it created. I've modified 4e multiclassing to a level that works for my table. However, multiclassing is always going to be a problematic system to handle with base mechanics only because tastes as to what multiclassing should be able to provide are going to differ widely.

I think the best solution, but also the most complicated, would be a scaling system. One where the base multiclassing is limited, then you can add scalability that allows it to be as permissive as the group wants.

I think it is just one of those situations where there are no perfect solutions. I think the key is for deigners to be a bit explicit about the advages and limitations of different approaches, perhaps offering a few alternate options. However I think both the 4E and the 3E route make sense for different reasons, and I cn live with either. With 3E, i think the best way to fix it is emphasize tying the various classes and prestige classes to the setting, being more explicit about the gm having a say on what is avilable, and having the players invest actual in character time to dipping into any class. You might be able to place a mechanical limitation as well by taking a closer look at advancement penalties provided they make sense.
 

Ratskinner

Adventurer
multiclassing in 3E was a double edged sword. On the one hand, when they first released the new rules, I loved how they simplified the multiclass system. That part of D&D had always been frustrating IMO and this really reduced some of the quirkiness. It really did make a difference for me. But as you point out, the class dipping and the unpredictability of some of the combos produced....unexpected results. This could work if you embraced, it could also work if you worked hard to curtail it. For me, really emphasizing the in game time investment made a huge difference. You didn't just take a level in x when you felt like it, you had to put in the training and often seek out people who could induct you (in the case of classes where there was that slrt of requirement). I think 4e responded to a problem many people genuinely had with the game. I dont fault them for tackling it and the way they went about it was more like classic D&D I think. But I would really like to see an effort made to preserve the flexibility and simplicity of the 3e multiclass system while eliminating mnag of its excesses.

I feel very similarly, although as a DM I came to despise 3.x multiclassing more than most players seem to. I prefer to run games with mostly non-monstrous NPCs, and all the 3.x multiclassing warts got in my way virtually every session. Its one of the things I dread most about what they've said regarding 5e.

The last time I really mused on "fixing" 3e's multiclassing, I was thinking that the system really should have differentiated between evolving into a prestige class and picking up another base class. Also, I think it could learn from the earlier editions, since not all 3e levels are the same. I think CnC's methods can help point the way here as it uses simultaneous multiclassing.

I was thinking something like this: (very sketchy, HP would have to be worked out, and skills for 3e, but Backgrounds make that easier in 5e :) )

Multi-classing from first level: You can take more than one class at once and be, say a Ranger-Wizard. If you do, you start at -2 levels for the first additional class, -3 if you triple class. Whenever you gain a level, you advance one level in each class' abilities. We'd need to extend class tables down to level -3, but those tables could be in the multiclassing section.

Take a class-and-a-half: You have a primary class, and a secondary class. You start at level 0 (an effective -1 penalty). Whenever you gain a level, you gain a level's worth of abilities in your primary class. Your effective level in your secondary class is one half of that rounded up.

Splash a class: Add some multiclassing feats a la 4e. (5e has already done this, I think.)

Prestige classes: If you meet the requirements for a prestige class, you may start taking levels in that class instead of your original class. Prestige classes would be designed to stack better, possibly even specifying the base class(es) that would lead into them.

Non-prestige multiclassing after character creation:Example; you're a Ranger 5, and you've had a change of heart and want to be a Wizard now? Okay, follow these steps.

1) Take the relevant "Splash" feat. (If you haven't already) In 5e, this step might be irrelevant, as the "splash" feats seem pretty good, even for the associated class IIRC.

2) When you would next gain a level, instead gain the benefits of a class-and-a-half with your new class as the secondary class. If you do, you do not gain a level in your original class. Our example would then be a Rgr 5/Wiz 2. You may then choose to advance as a class-and-a-half character with your original class as primary. If you wish to further abandon your original class, proceed to step 3. (Probably, you can re-train that "Splash" feat..or not, depending)

3) When you would next gain a level, instead gain the benefits of full multiclassing. If you do, do not gain a level in your original class. Our example would then be Ranger 5/Wizard 5. If that is all you desire, continue advancing from that point as a normal multi-class character. If you are abandoning your original class further, continue to step 4.

4) The next time you would level up, gain 2 levels of ability in your new class, and drop your level of ability in your first class to one half of that rounded down (if necessary). Our example character would become Wiz 7/Rgr 3. You may then proceed as a class-and-half character with your new class as the primary class. If you wish to further abandon your original class proceed to step 5.

5) The next time you would level up, gain 2 levels of ability in your new class. If you do, you loose all ability in your old class. Our example character would then be Wiz 9.

I figure by the time the math for this starts to get wonky, you're probably also looking more for prestige multi-classing, rather than switching classes.
 

sabrinathecat

Explorer
There are limits built in to retraining. With each level you can retrain 1 feat, 1 power, or 1 skill. Or theme if you haven't taken any of the utility powers that go with it (in which case you have to retrain those first). That's it. Major retooling of a character can take 5-10 levels.
There is noting wrong with retraining something at every level--in fact, it is a good exercise for determining what works best with a particular character type or style.

I understand that some WotC encounters system let's you retrain just about everything every level, but I haven't been to those.
 

sabrinathecat

Explorer
Pacifist Healer clerics are great characters. Well, if RP'd properly.

I used to work at McGraw-Hill, and I do know what it takes to put books together. Again, if any editor had allowed the mistakes I regularly see in 4th ed to be published, they would have been FIRED. Some of this is inexcusable. Heck, even the spell-checker on this board would have highlighted anything it didn't recognize in Red. So just a quick double-check of anything in red (adding cblast and cburst, as well as any other technical terms, to the spell-ckecker's vocabulary wouldn't be difficult) would have caught the majority of the errors.
 

Siberys

Adventurer
That's one of those things that's only a problem in RPGA-type games. In any home game I've ever played in, if something was that wrong, I'd have talked with the GM and tried to get his permission to change the stuff. And they'd have probably agreed, too, unless I was obviously trying to game things or what I wanted to change was a major, iconic component of the character.

EDIT: in reference to post 854, [MENTION=89838]sabrinathecat[/MENTION]
 
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Obryn

Hero
There are limits built in to retraining. With each level you can retrain 1 feat, 1 power, or 1 skill. Or theme if you haven't taken any of the utility powers that go with it (in which case you have to retrain those first). That's it. Major retooling of a character can take 5-10 levels.
There is noting wrong with retraining something at every level--in fact, it is a good exercise for determining what works best with a particular character type or style.

I understand that some WotC encounters system let's you retrain just about everything every level, but I haven't been to those.
Yeah, it was good that there's something about retraining in the core, but I suspect many groups give more freedom than that. One of the PCs in my game re-spec'd from Monk to Berserker. Certainly a house-rule, there.

-O
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Yeah, it was good that there's something about retraining in the core, but I suspect many groups give more freedom than that. One of the PCs in my game re-spec'd from Monk to Berserker. Certainly a house-rule, there.

-O

This happened in a game I participated in for a while too. Though it helps when there's a RP-based change in the character, ie: fighter "sees the light" and goes Paladin, gains distaste for fighting in general, goes cleric, gets angry that he can no longer fight wrongs, becomes avenger. Gets disheartened with religious corruption, becomes rogue, seeks to regain former power, makes demonic pact, becomes hexblade. Gains a taste for infernal power, goes full warlock.

I could see this as a pretty respectable progression, certainly over many levels, but one that would provide some impressive RP.
 

Hussar

Legend
This happened in a game I participated in for a while too. Though it helps when there's a RP-based change in the character, ie: fighter "sees the light" and goes Paladin, gains distaste for fighting in general, goes cleric, gets angry that he can no longer fight wrongs, becomes avenger. Gets disheartened with religious corruption, becomes rogue, seeks to regain former power, makes demonic pact, becomes hexblade. Gains a taste for infernal power, goes full warlock.

I could see this as a pretty respectable progression, certainly over many levels, but one that would provide some impressive RP.

And, let's be honest here, no version of D&D supports that example. Four class changes? I don't think any class based system is quite that flexible. :D

But, the 3e and 4e (which are pretty close to the same) Retraining rules allow a lot of what you're looking for. And the 3e rules for going beyond that (again, blanking on the proper name of that) are very good as well. Basically, when a character undergoes some very serious life changing event, you can start the retooling process.

As far as multiclassing goes, to be honest, this isn't really a problem I've had to face, so, I'm not really sure how to resolve it. I guess the worst I saw from multiclassing went the other way - the player multiclassed himself into a big steaming pile of doo doo. A halfling monk/paladin/Some PrC whose name I forget now. The character basically could never fail a save and gained saves vs everything, and had an AC in the stratosphere. But it was utterly useless for anything else. Couldn't fight, had virtually no skills. Was basically a place marker.

When the player finally killed off that character and brought in a high level cleric, I got my eyes opened to what can be accomplished by a high level tier 1 caster. Wow. The player went from wall-flower to totally dominating the game in one week.

I guess the moral of the story for me isn't so much that multi-classing is so powerful. It could be and I've seen the builds for it, but, IME and IMO, multiclassing often went the other way - every multiclass weakened the character rather than strengthened it.

Granted, that's entirely my own experience. I'm certainly not saying it can't be the other way too. Which, I suppose, does show why multiclassing is problematic.
 

sabrinathecat

Explorer
I'm not big into Multi-classing. The only reason I did it with my Warlock at LVL20 was that I couldn't find a class or feat worth taking given the party composition. So multi-class O-ssassin it was. Works well to have the extra 2d6+12 (or 1d6+6 on a miss) every encounter.
But to me, there should be no need to ever multi-class if you don't want to. So far, none of my other characters ever needed to.

Sure, there are some very effective multi-class combinations, but it isn't normally necessary.
 

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