You're doing what? Surprising the DM

1 is just a different game than 2.

This just baffles me. There hasn't been a D&D game since the beginning of time that wasn't both 'game 1' and 'game 2'. Every D&D has a throttle which allows you to control the speed that time passes so that you can get to the next interesting thing with minimal fuss. In combat, every body goes 'round', 'round', 'round'. Out of combat, everyone goes, "10 minutes", "10 minutes", "may be an hour", "a couple hours", "Ok, I guess its night.", "Ok, it's morning." Every D&D table expects a certain amount of, "Two days pass, and then....", or "Three weeks pass, then one morning...", "After 5 days you arrive in Normalville."

I mean, the fundamental contridiction you are trying to make is nonsense. "Since of wonderment" or "believable world" is not the antithesis of "continuity and progression of rising conflict and its climax " If you look at everyone's complaints about 'bad DMing' none of them have to do with the presence of a 'believable world'. pemerton's "temporal teleport" example has no bearing at all on maintaining causality, continuity, believablity, and wonderment. Pemerton's objection can't be based on any of those things, because all that got destroyed. pemerton's objection is quite the opposite - the DM broke causality, continuity and believability to metagame against him - destroying and undermining the careful built up setting that pemerton had begun to buy into. Hussar's complaints aren't really that DM's were building too believable of a world at the expense of story. Hussar's complaints and pemertons are fundamentally the same - they believe the DM is treating them unfairly!!!

That's what the whole thread has been about since the beginning. It's not about GNS - it's about player's feeling mistreated and demanding justice.

This doesn't require any big stupid convoluted theories. This is simple. If your players believe they are being treated unfairly, it doesn't matter what agenda they have or you have, you've got a more fundamental problem. Pretending that there is some agenda out there were by players like to be treated unfairly, but you, your not THAT sort of player is just so much ridiculous posturing behind vague semantics. Is there anyone here that likes to be treated unfairly?

Sense of outrage is real. "game 1" and "game 2" are purely literary figments.
 

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[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], that looks right to me.

What I'm puzzled by is the apparent denial by some posters in this thread that your (2) is actually viable

Where in the heck do you get that? What he describes in 2 was never what I claimed wasn't viable. What I claimed wasn't viable, and still do, was the use of scene framing by players, which we've now long since established you agree with me on now that we are no longer using scene framing to mean things as broad as offering up a player proposition to be resolved by the action resolution mechanics. As you say, "The reason for giving the GM the actual job is to allow the GM to bring various elements of backstory, foreshadowing etc into the scene which the players aren't in the same position to do (because it is hard to frame a challenge for yourself, or to pose to yourself a question with a secret answer)."

or interestingly different from your (1).

I've read your play examples. They don't strike me as being particularly nar or experimental in your play. You run a pretty standard game high level open world game with continiously GM initiated challenge that wouldn't have been of much surprise to me back in 1990. You clearly aren't even as heavily thespian in your play as I encourage especially considering the sheer density of combat at your table, I wonder how you have any time to even explore player initiated literary themes or beliefs. In all those dozen examples I really haven't been able to sort through and find one thing that was clearly being driven by player story cues rather than simple proposition. In fact, if I had to guess, my complaint about your table as a player would be that your - at least as it comes out in the stories - too focused on continious GM initiated challenge, combat, and mechanical advancement and it ultimately just feels at least through the writing as being too often fundamentally indistinguishable from a long serious of random encounters on a largely empty battle map where the GM opened the MM picked an monster and said, "Hey, this might be fun."

But even with that, your 'social encounter' only session that is mostly free roleplay, or your prep of exploratory play where you prep fairly heavily, reconfigure some ideas to fit your particular conception, and insert new details as needed during play, could have been any of my sessions and both sound like fun. I mean, there are some mechanical differences because you are fitting into the 4e framework, and I'd tend to do more what you did with the interogation of free play leading up to a check and possibly a serious of those leading to different complications, but I'm just not seeing any sort of purism on your part standing in sharp contrast to any sort of purism on my part.
 

pemerton's "temporal teleport" example has no bearing at all on maintaining causality, continuity, believablity, and wonderment. Pemerton's objection can't be based on any of those things, because all that got destroyed. pemerton's objection is quite the opposite - the DM broke causality, continuity and believability to metagame against him - destroying and undermining the careful built up setting that pemerton had begun to buy into.
That's actually not my complaint. My complaint was not that the GM destroyed the setting. My complaint was that the GM invalidated the intraparty connections and engagement with the setting, and the play that had led to that.

Hussar's complaints and pemertons are fundamentally the same - they believe the DM is treating them unfairly!!!

That's what the whole thread has been about since the beginning. It's not about GNS - it's about player's feeling mistreated and demanding justice.
Not in my case. I don't think the GM treated me unfairly. I think the GM couldn't handle his players' contributions to the plot of the game, and so engineered a clean break. It's about aesthetics and particpant roles in RPG play. There's no issue of justice.

"game 1" and "game 2" are purely literary figments.
And now we're back in the strange situation in which D&D and BW are the same game, while at the same time anyone who wants to actually advocate for BW style play - which would absolutely include skipping over the desert, resolving the hiring via a quick Circles test, and ample "say yes" in place of "proposition, fortune, resolution" - is told that they're doing it wrong.
 

What I claimed wasn't viable, and still do, was the use of scene framing by players
But you argued upthread that this is a reason to think that what [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] wants to do - exercise an informal veto over scene framing and informal control over stakes - is not viable.

Whereas I think that it clearly is. And there are a whole systems designed to facilitate it.

I've read your play examples. They don't strike me as being particularly nar or experimental in your play. You run a pretty standard game high level open world game with continiously GM initiated challenge that wouldn't have been of much surprise to me back in 1990.
At that level of description you can't tell whether play is G, N or S.

your 'social encounter' only session that is mostly free roleplay
I also outline two skill challenges - one involving dinner with the duke, one involving interrogating a prisoner. Neither was free roleplay. The first, at least, prompted a multi-page discussion of how skill challenges work as a system of adjudication and resolution.

You clearly aren't even as heavily thespian in your play as I encourage
I'm not remotely thespian, and nor are most of my players. Some speak in first person, some in third person. For me personally, it's not a huge part of the play experience.

especially considering the sheer density of combat at your table, I wonder how you have any time to even explore player initiated literary themes or beliefs.
If combat wasn't going to be a big part of play, I wouldn't be playing D&D!

As I think I posted upthread, I don't find any particular conflict or contrast between combat and thematic stuff. That's one of the significant strengths of 4e.

I'm just not seeing any sort of purism on your part standing in sharp contrast to any sort of purism on my part.
Off the top of my head, from my memory of the posts I linked to, the following encounters/challenges were improvised:

* the interrogation of the Torog cultists;

* most of the details of the exploration scenario, including key details of cultic practice and how that related to the last days;

* the hobgoblin/Calastryx encounter;

* the dopppelganger encounter;

* the details of the Kas encounter;

* the wizard's reincarnation as a deva invoker;

* the presence of an Orcus temple underground;

* the thin barrier between the world and Shadowfell with a dracolich coming through;

* the giants + eidolon encounter;

* the duergar fungus farm;

* the details of the duergar hold that the PCs ended up near-destroying.​

Plus probably other stuff I'm not thinking of. That strikes me as different from your own account of your preference for preparing complications in advance.

In all those dozen examples I really haven't been able to sort through and find one thing that was clearly being driven by player story cues

<snip>

it ultimately just feels at least through the writing as being too often fundamentally indistinguishable from a long serious of random encounters on a largely empty battle map where the GM opened the MM picked an monster and said, "Hey, this might be fun."
Again off the top of my head, things driven by player cues (cues themselves in brackets):

* The cultic details and the way the last days played out in the exploration scenario (Raven Queen worship);

* The Orcus temple and associated stuff (Raven Queen worship);

* The sucking of power out of Calastryx's corpse, and the opening of the gate (Chaos obsession);

* The framing of the doppelgangers via a dream about dragonborn (tiefling paladin);

* The whole rebirth episode (the wizard's religous doings both ingame and in pregame backstory);

* If I mentioned it (I think it came up), the whole series of events around reclaiming and rededicating the ruined temple (initiated by the Erathis worshipping wizard, resolved by him as an invoker of (among others) Erathis);

* The PCs' relatioship with the duergar, going back to their redemption of slaves from the duergar;

* Not to mention the two social skill challenges, as explained in the relevant posts.​

Plus a lot more. The most obvious non-player-driven example there is the beholder encounter, which really was just "This would be cool" - though the roper in that was player-driven (as explained in the post).
 

And now we're back in the strange situation in which D&D and BW are the same game, while at the same time anyone who wants to actually advocate for BW style play - which would absolutely include skipping over the desert, resolving the hiring via a quick Circles test, and ample "say yes" in place of "proposition, fortune, resolution" - is told that they're doing it wrong.

No, I never said any of those things were 'doing it wrong'. I have repeatedly said I might have done those things in the same place. That's my problem with claiming that one is 'BW' and the 'D&D' style play. BW doesn't actually advocate skipping deserts, nor does it actually advocate skipping hiring. BW's resolution isn't always breezy, as its crunchy expectations about combat indicate. Nor is it always high action, as the fact that the example of play provided by the introductory scenario expects to see an extended period of play focused on what is often a trivial bookkeeping type aspect of a D&D session - treasure division. I can't imagine how my players would react to the suggestion we spend 30 minutes or an hour or more RPing out treasure division; I'm pretty sure they'd advocate skipping that scene. ;) D&D play gets plenty of scene trunction and cut to the action, and plenty of just proposition and resolution without fortune.

That's actually not my complaint. My complaint was not that the GM destroyed the setting. My complaint was that the GM invalidated the intraparty connections and engagement with the setting

That seems like cutting a fine point.

Not in my case. I don't think the GM treated me unfairly. I think the GM couldn't handle his players' contributions to the plot of the game, and so engineered a clean break.

That sounds unfair to me. By my standards of what constitutes good GMing, that's grossly unfair. Why do you have players if you don't want them to contribute to the plot of the game? It's grossly unfair to offer play to the players, and then have it turn out you only want a passive audience. And his 'solution' to the problem is one of the most grotesque railroads I've ever heard of. I would generally see all of that as unfair. Are you certain you don't find it unfair? You think it perfectly thoughtful and considerate DMing to launch an existing campaign 100 years into the future no save and no consultation with the players? You think 'my style' advocates that, but it just isnt' for you or something of the sort?
 
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But you argued upthread that this is a reason to think that what [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] wants to do - exercise an informal veto over scene framing and informal control over stakes - is not viable.

Whereas I think that it clearly is. And there are a whole systems designed to facilitate it.

I just read the BW rulebook, and it's not one of them (indeed, I don't know where it has gone lately, but the original reads like a 3e D&D fantasy heartbreaker right down to its agenda of 'accuracy' stated in the preface). Neither is 4e D&D. I know that there are systems that allow for that - Dogs in the Vineyard comes to mind - but DitV uses fortune at the beginning and has actual mechanics built around stakes and bidding limited resources for narrative control. This codifies how scene framing is done and what is staked on a scene in a very formal way that facilitates player driven scene framing by making it just another limited resource controlled by fortune mechanics. D&D in no edition has anything like that and instead relies on DM interpretation of what you are calling 'player cues' most of which seem to come out of the player's backstory authority and the rest built up through normal player engagement, which isn't any different than what I do in play nor really outside of my normal experience with many DMs in 30 years of play. At a fundamental level, what you are saying isn't really anything more than, "The players can to a fork in the road with two signs. One led to Scary Woods and the other to Frostbite Mountains. The players chose mountains, and so my campaign has mostly been about what happened in the mountains." Granted, like almost every other campaign, that gets infinitely bifurcated by players more and more refined choices.

Your making a big deal about my perference for prep over extemp, and while that is important, its not important because of GNS. What might change as I swung between different GNS agendas is the sort of prep I'd advocate for, but don't imagine - and I certainly don't ever imagine - that any prep can be so complete that improv shouldn't be in the GM's toolbag. Yes, you must invent things during play and go with the PC's direction. I never know everything that is going to happen in a session, and what I'm always prepping for is expected player action. Last night I prepped a house and a stat block that before the previous session I wouldn't have expected to need. Now I know based on the surprising turns of last session its likely to be needed. Hopefully I'll get some more clues about the player's future actions in order to be more ready for them tonight, and I'll prep based on that.

At that level of description you can't tell whether play is G, N or S.

Maybe not, but it tells me a whole lot more about how your table actually functions than saying 'G','N', or 'S' does.
 

I'm sorry, not seeing much of a difference here. "I'll play what I want to play and screw everyone else at the table" is the extreme of what you're talking about. Same as, "I'll play what I want to play and everyone else should skip to what I want" is the extreme of my position.

Agreed - we end up discussing extremes.

And that's where we differ. No, I do not believe that that's the GM's job. That is the table's job. It is certainly something I expect from all of my players. I am not a babysitter. I am not standing on top of the pyramid doling out enjoyment packets to the masses. I believe in a much, much more democratic table.

"Democratic" and "we must scene shift when I demand a scene shift" strike me as dissimilar. Your examples focus on yourself and the GM, and despite repeated hints that we should scene shift to the views of the other players, I still have no insights in that regard. Were they engaged? Were they asleep? Despite claiming you prioritize their fun, you have not provided any indication you were aware of their enjoyment of th scenes you demanded to skip.

But, rolling this back to player creativity, I see this type of authoritative GMing as stifling creativity. The players know that the GM will take any creative idea and force a number of restrictions on it, forcing the table to spend considerable time resolving a creative idea. Players quickly learn not to bother because they aren't interested in wasting that much table time. The cost/benefit ratio is not high enough to justify the attempt.

Where I would see "OK, it happens, now what?" as a dismissal of a creative suggestion. If I say "we kill the Grell", the GM does not respond "OK, the Grell is dead. What now?" We roll for initiative, we roll to hit and damage, the Grell actively opposes us and eventually, we either succeed or fail in killing the Grell. We play it out. Again, I suspect you would not be happy if, after recruiting your hirelings, the GM said "OK, you return to the Grell's location and slay it. What now?" I rather suspect you wanted to play out the combat. Even if it "wasted" table time.

If I know that the DM is going to spend an hour or more when I try to hire hirelings, I'm not going to try to hire hirelings. If I know that the DM is going to drop in stuff that we will need later then I will not try to bypass his breadcrumb trail because doing so will simply result in failure. Players will take the path of least resistance. They'll explore the desert, not because they are particularly engaged in the desert, but because they know that if they don't, the DM will simply punish them later by making tasks much more difficult/impossible and they'll just have to backtrack any way.

Once again, you are assuming that the GM wanted to run hours of boring, irrelevant desert exploration, and there will be something useful, relevant and/or engaging in the desert only if you choose to skip the desert. Is it unfair of the GM to make it harder to assassinate the Duke if you decide on a frontal assault on his stronghold rather than investigating to determine a means to get inside the stronghold without facing its defenses full on?

The point is not that it doesn't happen in the fiction. The point is that it dones't need to be played out at the table.

To me, a lot of the reason we game is enjoyment of, and desire to emulate, the fiction. We want our characters to do cool things, like they do in the movies or in the novels.

I want to know a bit more, but as a player this would tend to irritate me, yes. If the players have made it pretty clear that they're not interested in desert shenanigans, why is the GM bringing things back to the desert?

Why have the desert there at all? As a player, I want it to be gentle rolling hills with the occasional peaceful stream. Change it - there's no magic that says a desert must be there.

The worst example of the sort of GMing you're describing (and apparently endorsing) that I have personally experienced involved a 2nd ed AD&D game 15 or so years ago. The group was fairly large (6 or 7 players) and had well-established characters with a lot of intraparty relationships based on various forms of connection to the gameworld, including a prophecy that the GM was in control of and that seemed to be the focus of the game.

Around 8th or 9th level the GM, without any foreshadowing within the fiction, nor any out-of-game discussion, moved the whole game 100 years into the future, via some sort of temporal teleport. Suddenly all the relationships that the players had built up between their PCs and the gameworld, and all the work we had done trying to make sense of the prophecy in relation to our PCs and the gameworld and those relationships, was invalidated.

I left the game not long after, and I don't believe that it lasted much longer after that. In effect, the GM killed it off. My impression is that he had lost his sense of control over his own backstory, but wasn't prepared to follow the players' leads, and so in effect "rebooted" things so he could start with a blank slate.

That sounds a lot more like changing the desert to a rolling field than proceeding with the implications of the desert's existence, to me. The biggest difference is that you liked the current setting, rather than detesting it, when the GM pulled the rug out from underneath you.

Does the player with the Horse Lord Ranger have to spend more time at the table doing horse-y stuff to get the benefits? Or is one benefit of being a Horse Lord Ranger that you get good horses without having to spend time at the table? I think different groups have different views.

It comes down to verisimilitude. The Horse Lord has abilities and background that make it far less likely he would select that lame horse. Having it fobbed off on a character who has made it clear he just wants to get a horse ASAP and isn’t spending a lot of time seems far more reasonable.

However, I come back to which approach you prefer – the players get the choice of putting some effort into locating good horses, or they each scratch off 25 gold and the GM rolls to see which one of them got the lame horse? This assumes none of the characters have any special horse-related abilities – again, I can’t see that Horse Lord being so readily fooled.

Hussar has been prettly clear that, by summoning the centipede, he's trying to get the benefits of a desert crossing (ie being in City B) with less rather than more table time. I say, in those circumstances, give it to him! It's not as if there are no complications to throw at the players that they are interested in, such that we have to fill our play time resolving situations that they're not interested in!

Again, I see two issues. The first is the broader table – do all the players want to skip the desert, or does just Hussar want to skip the desert? In the former case, there is a disconnect between what the GM wants to run and what the players want to play. In the latter, there is a disconnect between what Hussar wants and what the rest of the table wants. Who mentioned a preference for a “more democratic table”?

Second is whether the means selected actually resolves the challenge. If I tell you I want to sneak into the Duke’s stronghold, and I will use a Potion of Invisibility to slip past anything and everything to get to the Duke’s chambers, will that get me through a locked portcullis, past bloodhounds in the courtyard and let me find the Duke’s specific chamber, with a guarantee he waits helplessly within, or does the fact that Invisibility may not override every challenge to get to the Duke, and has a time limit, get considered? Hey, I’m not engaged by this infiltration scene – I want to cut to the chase and assassinate the Duke.

And, this, right there, in a nutshell is exactly what I mean by punishing the players for not jumping through the DM's hoops. The DM automatically takes the worst possible interpretation and punishes the players by having his horse be lame. It's not even a die roll, where you could at least argue for impartiality. No, instead, the player is automatically cheated by the horse trader.

You assume that the horse becomes lame because the players decided to fast track the horse purchase, and don’t even consider the possibility there was a lame horse for sale from the outset. You keep telling us that the cut scene option you favour is reasonable as long as we don’t assume the players are dicks, but every comment you make on a GM’s action presumes he’s a dick. Weren’t you mentioning double standards a while back?

If the player did check the horse, and succeeded, would it still be lame? I doubt it. If the player played through the DM's checks, the horse would be perfectly fine. The only reason that the horse is lame is because the DM wants to force the player to play through whatever the DM wants him to play through.

Why is it impossible a check would have revealed a lame horse? Again, you are assuming not only an adversarial GM, but one happily cheating on even the most mundane matters. Why would anyone continue to play with such a GM?

Why is there no chance that the hurried player gets lucky and buys a really great horse? N'raac, would you ever give a better than average horse to a player who skipped over your checks?

Where did I say there is no chance the player gets lucky? That said, I find it a lot more likely that the typical merchant fobs off inferior goods on the unknowing and hasty purchaser than that he sells him a premium product without obtaining a premium price, so I doubt the odds of “lame horse” and “amazing horse” are equal.

This is why I get "shirty" about this sort of thing. The DM will always choose the most punishing interpretation whenever the player doesn't jump through the DM forced hoops. "Oh, you didn't check out the desert, so now you fail at the city despite having no knowledge that what you needed was in the desert in the first place. I guess next time you'll play the way I want to play won't you?" says this style of DMing.

So, again, all the players are assumed to act in the utmost good faith, but the GM is a jerk looking for any excuse to screw over the players. Is that how you GM? It’s not how you tell us you GM, but I find it hard to believe that your own style is unique amongst the gaming world.

The only person I see choosing the most punishing interpretation of everything is you.

Yup.

N'raac's example is a bit strained, because he proposes a ludricrously extreme example of a player initiating the purchase of a horse but then demanding no IC time resource be spent on it and deliberately forgoing his skill check to appraise a horse. But even then, N'raac doesn't suggest that the player automatically gets a lame horse, only that in this case a lame horse might be a reasonable result.

I’d play that scene out as a player in some instances. I’m in a rush to get out of town (for whatever reason), my character is trying to get that horse ASAP, and I may even say “so he’s not being too careful about what horse he gets”. I would expect characters who are not rushed for some reason would be less time-sensitive and more careful checking the quality of the product, but if you're telling me "I just want to get a new horse ASAP so we don't waste any time before we go back and get revenge on that Grell", it sounds to me like you're not focused on assessing the quality of the horse.

But then, I’m the guy who, in the first session running a new berserker warrior, when asked “How are you facing down the Umber Hulk” responded “Looking it square in the eye, as any proper warrior would”. I’m still amazed he gave me the saving throw (and somewhat satisfied it came up ‘1’).
 
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BW doesn't actually advocate skipping deserts, nor does it actually advocate skipping hiring.
It actually advocates skipping both in the circusmtances Hussare described - skip them unless the players have a Belief. a Relationship or an Instinct that is put into play.

It also advises the GM what to do if s/he wants to bring the desert or the hiring into play - frame it by reference to some player cue.

The Relationship example in the revised rulebook is clear - if one of the PCs has a romantic partner in the village, and a vampire turns up, it tries to feed on the partner. The discussion in the Adventure Builder elaborates on these sorts of points with more examples of when to Say Yes and when to roll the dice.

BW's resolution isn't always breezy
Nor is 4e. Nor, I gather, is TRoS. I don't see what that has to do with it, though. Resolution can be breezy and not player-driven. Or non-breezy and player driven. Or vice versa.

Nor is it always high action, as the fact that the example of play provided by the introductory scenario expects to see an extended period of play focused on what is often a trivial bookkeeping type aspect of a D&D session - treasure division. I can't imagine how my players would react to the suggestion we spend 30 minutes or an hour or more RPing out treasure division; I'm pretty sure they'd advocate skipping that scene.
If that's really how you see The Sword, then I have to conclude that you don't understand what the designer is aiming for.

Or are you using a slightly facetious way of speaking to make the point that The Sword shows how something can be problematised that D&D often doesn't problematise?

D&D doesn't normally make contractual negotiations high stakes either, but in the original session in which the PCs in my game began to establish their relationship with the duergar, it unfolded as contractual negotiations over the ransom of hostages. And the stakes were high, the negotiations tense, and the payoff at the table great.

That seems like cutting a fine point.
Perhaps, though personally I don't see it. Whether or not the point is fine, it's accurate.

You think 'my style' advocates that, but it just isnt' for you or something of the sort?
I know nothing of your style but what you post. Here is what you posted in the other thread; it sets desiderata for a setting that bear almost no connection to my desiderata:

a) They used a climate simulator to place the ecosystems of the world. And they've provided maps that explain climate, rainfall, ocean currents, prevailing winds, ect.
b) They've put some serious thoughts into the world's demographics. City sizes and placements make sense. Villages cluster around population centers.
c) They've built up a many layered global history of the world that helps me understand what people might believe about themselves.
d) They've put some serious thought into the world's cosmology. The world's cosmology needs to not only meet the game needs and address questions like, "Who might my ranger worship?", but they've addressed religion on something other than a gamist level so that I know why people might venerate these beings and that they are meeting basic human needs and aren't just relevant to some guy down in a dungeon. Frankly, to this point only 'The Book of the Righteous' has ever attempted that among any of the 'Dieties and Demigods' style supplements I've seen.
e) Almost immediately as an outgrowth of this examination in 'c' and 'd', the world needs to have a detailed calendar and suggestions about how to localize the calendar for different regions.
f) We've got the outline of something like cooherent economics for the world. I don't really need to know what NPC's you think should exist in a city when getting this world level overview, and I sure as heck don't want statblocks. We can have modules for that. But I'd like to know what the major imports and exports of a city or region are, and who their major trading partners are. I'd like to know what customs or laws make this city or region unique. What is the city famous for? Who are they friends with? Who is vying for their friendship? Who do they hate and why?
g) I'd like to see real exploration of the consequences of magic on the politics and sociology of the world. Make me believe in your setting.

I am not interested in (a), (b), (e) or (f). I am confident that if I care about (g) I can do it better than any game designer except perhaps Greg Stafford or Lev Lafeyette.

As far as (c) and (d) are concerned, the best D&D world I have yet run is the default 4e setting, because it provides a cosmology and a history that are laden with conflict that the players are almost (not quite - there is the possibility of halfling ranger worshippers of Melora) obliged to buy into in building their PCs. But that is not how you have framed your interest, which is in terms of "believing in the setting".

Whether or not you intend it, everything you post gives me the impression that simulation, with the GM having responsbility for maintaining that sort of consistency (esp via prep) is a very high priority for you.

That's not a high priority for me. The presentation of the 4e default world in the PHB and DMG alone is better for my purposes than anything else I've ever seen, setting-wise, for fantasy RPG ing.
 

Whether or not you intend it, everything you post gives me the impression that simulation, with the GM having responsbility for maintaining that sort of consistency (esp via prep) is a very high priority for you.

That's not a high priority for me. The presentation of the 4e default world in the PHB and DMG alone is better for my purposes than anything else I've ever seen, setting-wise, for fantasy RPG ing.

That post on granular world-building that you captured above is one I was going to use to write a long rejoinder. I was going to elaborate on different design impetus and mechanics and how these engender very different play experiences and expectations (a la Hussar's) and the dissonance created when there is incoherency within the group or the system:creative agenda interface. I was going to talk about:

- Scene/encounter-based durations (1 round, 1 scene)
- Outcome based design for NPCs
- Subjective DCs for task resolution that are contextually framed with respect to PC level and the scope of a conflict to be resolved
- Player resources specifically meant to create plot or conflict

- Open world based durations (10 minute/level, 1 hour/level)
- Overland travel speed and range/hours traveled.
- Process based design for NPCs
- Objective DCs for task resolution
- Tables for trade, economics, climate and weather patterns and other world building tools

However, I've considered against it because I don't think it would lead anywhere constructive for anyone involved. I don't think you can bridge a stern divide of "System/creative agenda matters":"No it doesn't" without playing together and playing different games together. And I've just written a long post in another thread that was slightly more interesting to me at the present moment. And lucky enough, your 3 sentences here are a good enough sum-up!
 

I’d play that scene out as a player in some instances. I’m in a rush to get out of town (for whatever reason), my character is trying to get that horse ASAP, and I may even say “so he’s not being too careful about what horse he gets”. I would expect characters who are not rushed for some reason would be less time-sensitive and more careful checking the quality of the product
I don't feel that you really adressed the point I raised upthread - which is, why does the PC being careful rather than rushed mean that we can't resolve it quickly at the table? As I put it earlier, just because it happens in the fiction doesn't mean it has to be played out at the table. (PC urination is the poster child for this, but I would think carefully inspecting the quality of a new horse could also be up there in many games.)

To me, a lot of the reason we game is enjoyment of, and desire to emulate, the fiction. We want our characters to do cool things, like they do in the movies or in the novels.
Sure, but for many of us those cool things don't include lengthy narration of desert crossings, or of interviews with prospective mercenaries.

It comes down to verisimilitude.

<snip>

whether the means selected actually resolves the challenge.
I discussed this upthread. My take on the centipede example is this: Hussar wants to resolve the desert scene quickly; this requires at least a veneer of verisimiitude; he provides that veneer by having his PC summon the huge centipede.

The GM, by treating this not as it was intended but as a move in the dynamics of resolving the "desert challenge", has either misinterpreted or (in Hussar's view) disregarded what Hussar was trying to do.

Why have the desert there at all? As a player, I want it to be gentle rolling hills with the occasional peaceful stream.
I answered this upthread. The colour of a desert setting is very different from the colour of a pastoral setting. But just because I want the colour of a desert setting doesn't mean that I have any interest in resolving the minutiae of a desert trek, especially if what I"m really interested in is the action in City B.

The biggest difference is that you liked the current setting, rather than detesting it, when the GM pulled the rug out from underneath you.
No. The current setting was, per se, neither here nor there. The player-created fiction based around that setting - relationships between PCs, interpretations of the prophecy - were what were interesting.

It was the GM's invalidation of all that that, for me, wrecked the campaign (and as I stated upthread, I believe the GM did this precisely to eliminate that player control over the game and reassert his own authority over the fiction).
 

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