D&D 5E The New Fighter

[kerleth]

So martial damage dice and manuevers went the way of the dodo. Deadly strike (and multiattack for the fighter and rogue) have taken it's place, with old manuevers becoming feats or class abilities.

I'd like to show a comparision of the old fighter to the new one.

OLD FIGHTER
-Got access to martial damage dice like the other martial classes. These dice were a per turn rescource.
-Manuevers allowed you to trade in the bonus damage of these dice to do things such as tripping along with your normal weapon damage, dealing partial damage on a miss, or reducing the damage of an attack against you or an ally. You could combine different manuevers in a single attack for a variety of effects.
-Allowed to pick a fighting style that gave you a grouped set of manuevers as you leveled up, simplifying character creation. You were also allowed to branch out from your fighting style and take a different manuever, or cherry pick from the beginning, allowing for maximum customizability.

NEW FIGHTER
-Martial damage dice are replaced by deadly strike like the other martial classes. This is based off of weapon damage.
-Manuevers are now feats or class abilities.
-Fighters get expertise dice, an encounter rescource. This is unique to the fighter.
-Fighters pick from a short list for a more damage ability, a better armor class ability, a possible damage on a miss ability, and a saving throw boost ability. One ability from each list. All must be cherry picked from their short lists.
-Fighters get bonus martial feats. All must be cherry picked from the martial feats list.

I hate to say it, but the new fighter seems both less customizable AND more complicated than the previous. That doesn't mean there isn't potential, but it is in all a let down to me. I'm curious about what others think.

P.S. Also, some of the "manuevers" seem a downgrade.
The new parry runs off of an encounter rescource (expertise dice). It boosts AC and you can spend only one die. There is a good chance that using it to boost your AC may do nothing since you could roll low. It seems that the move to an encounter rescource would be a good reason to keep some variation of the old version, where you KNOW that you will at least reduce some damage and not feel like your ability is wasted. I have similar concerns with the glancing blow style "manuevers".

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Well I wrote another thread about tidying up multiattack, but I certainly am looking forward to trying out the new expertise dice. I've wanted a fatigue mechanic for the fighter since the start, and it looks ok - it could be better: they could drop the dice part entirely and just make the effects fixed. Someone on WotC has already highlighted how marginal adding 1d6 to your AC is (because of the pointless risk, even if you know the monster's precise attack roll) - it would be easier just to let you turn a hit into a miss, or half damage. It would be easier to give fixed additional damage, or another [W]. It would be easier to give advantage on a save. And so on.

 

[Gargoyle]

The only thing I really dislike about the new fighter (besides bonus feats which are probably placeholders per Mike Mearl's tweet) is the recharge mechanic for the expertise dice. It's not fun nor smart to give up an action in most circumstances. I'd rather see something like the ability to make a saving throw or ability check at the end of your turn to recover an expertise die, but only if you start the turn with no expertise dice. This would give fighters a sort of rhythm of play where they can have peaks and valleys of effectiveness in longer fights without benching them for entire rounds.

 

[variant]

I think a Constitution ability check or saving throw to recover an expertise die would actually be a good idea. I am generally not a fan of encounter powers because of their inconsistencies, but I think this would be a big improvement on them.

 

[kerleth]

I think the current fighter desperately needs to things.
1) Less effects like the current glancing blow(possibly useless) and more effects like ricochet (cool and useful).
2) Fighting styles or some other theme that provides a pre-picked set of feats/"manuevers" that you can depart from at your discretion. I think this is essential as an aide to character creation.

As far as a recharge mechanic for your dice, I would like something condition based.
Example: If an ally is reduced to 0 hp or rendered unconscious you regain an expertise die.
Make a number of these abilities and tie them to the above mentioned fighting style to make a flavorful and varied play experience.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I just want the expertise dice to return to being a resource you allocate each round. That's a big part of what made them awesome.

 

[Gargoyle]

I see some potential in the direction they are going. By limiting how many times you can use it, they can make the abilities more powerful and give you more dice. But they haven't really made the abilities compelling, nor have they given us more dice (except perhaps at 1st level I think) and I believe that the recharge mechanic is the opposite of fun.

 

[Li Shenron]

I hate to say it, but the new fighter seems both less customizable AND more complicated than the previous. That doesn't mean there isn't potential, but it is in all a let down to me. I'm curious about what others think.

Agreed.

Fighting Styles were a great idea because they felt a little bit like subclasses. Every class got its own secondary choice: Wizard had arcane traditions, Clerics had religions, Rogues had schemes, Monks had monastic traditions... Druids were going to have circles, Paladins were going to have oaths. This would be great so why removing fighting styles???

I am afraid that the designers have been listening too much to the common complaint that "but everybody should be able to learn that!" when it comes to fighter's stuff. Allowing fighter stuff to everyone is what doomed the 3ed to become merely a support class for multiclassing, with people dipping a level or two for bonus feats and nothing more. If the 5e Fighter has to be like that again, better to ditch the class from the game entirely! Butcher the Fighter class into feats and let everybody eat their spoils. Expertise Dice is not bad, but it's too weak and too rigid to make the Fighter stand on its own as a class.

OTOH, they could go back to the previous concept, and reinstate Fighter-only maneuvers. All they need to do to silence the "should be available to everyone" complaints, is (1) make sure that no fundamental narrative combat option requires maneuvers (e.g. there is another way to disarm, charge, grapple etc. that doesn't require a Fighter-only maneuver) and (2) add either multiclassing rules or even class-dipping, feature-stealing rules for creating cross-class characters for those gaming groups who want that.

 

[Ainamacar]

How about a mix of new and old? Call the dice "Combat Rhythm" or something, and let the fighter risk some (or none, or all) of them on maneuvers each round. (I see it as a mix of fatigue and inspiration/momentum.) If the maneuver is successful the die or dice are retained for the next round, otherwise they are lost. A simple regeneration mechanic is to increase the number of dice by 1 on a successful non-maneuver attack, so the fighter can keep fighting but can't try anything too fancy while building a new rhythm. A fighter can risk any number of combat rhythm dice each round, which will suit different playstyles. Some would spend freely with whatever is available, some would wait for the right moment for elaborate maneuvers, and some would spend small amounts consistently. A fighter can change how to use the resource depending on the situation, of course. For example, against easy enemies the fighter will probably be able to spend a bit more freely, while against more difficult (or at least defensive) foes it may pay to be more judicious.

In any case, it is barely more difficult to track than the current playtest, but could help retain the more dynamic feel of the last one.

 

[Szatany]

I also think this new fighter is a step backwards. Specializations are gone, and they were so cool They must be brought back. Reliance on feats also rubs me wrong way, as it harkens back to failed design of 3rd edition. Add to it rather weak expertise dice system and bland abilities it grants and we get a very mediocre class.
My proposals:

Expertise: Leave it as it is, except changing how dice are recovered.
You recover ED in two ways. At the start of your turn, you regain 1 expertise die. Also, if you spend an action doing nothing but regaining your breath, analyzing situation, etc. you regain all your ED.

Death Dealer, Superior Defense, Unerring Attacker, Multiattack, Unstoppable: Those should go away. Instead, fighter chooses his fighing style at 1st level and that determines which abilities from those groups he or she gets. But fighters are a cut above mere warriors - their specialities incorporate more than one fighting style.

Tank - Warlord - Skirmisher
Tanks rely on maximum protection and have abilities that exploit that. As a tank, you either fight with a two handed weapon, or with a weapon and a shield. You gain abilities that allow you to do both.
Level 1: Deep wound, block missiles, parry
Level 2: Slam, Wide Arc
Level 4: Shield swipe, glancing blow
Level 5: Whirlwind attack
Level 7: Great fortitude, hold fast

Warlords prefer coordination in combat, using allies to great effect. As a warlord, you help others be excellent. Choise of a weapon is a secondary issue for you.
Level 1: Deep wound, parry, warning shout
Level 2: Strike command
Level 4: Attack orders, careful attack
Level 5: Whirlwind attack
Level 7: Bolster allies, iron will

Skirmishers rely on speed and agility. As a skirmisher, you're best with fighting techniques that involve movement and you fight either with a ranged weapon, or two melee weapons. Unlike other fighters, you prefer medium armors. You gain abilities that allow you to do both.
Level 1: Deep wound, nimble dodge
Level 2: Ricochet, something for 2-weapon fighting
Level 4: Nick, something for 2-weapon fighting
Level 5: Whirlwind attack, volley
Level 7: Lightning reflexes

Its up to a player if he wants to combine benefits from those specialities with feat specializations to become a true master of a fighting style. He doesn't have to though, so this frees him to choose something else, even unrelated to combat, like Fighter (skirmisher) [skulker].