Robot Combat League

What is the losers-win phenomenon? Where are you getting these fresh parts from?

In just about every match, the under-dog team has won.

In just about every team, the under-dog team had defects that should have deemed then unfit for survival. the "favored" team tended to have traits that should have led to their victory, better communication, strategy, etc. At most, the favored team suffered from over-confidence and ego when they compared themselves to their underdog opponent. However, this arrogance didn't seem to be overwhelming (they didn't slack off during the fight or act like the hare racing the tortoise).

In round one of most of these fights, the underdog team takes a beating, and loses some actuators. The favored team takes a few hits, but it appears to be cosmetic. In the very first fight, the favored team didn't do more than a cursory glance at their bot, subsequent matches the "winning" team is a bit more thorough.


In any event, the underdog has to replace blown actuators with new ones. Fresh parts.

The favored team looks at their hardware, and sees no real obvious problem. At most, they tight a few loose bolts, because that's all that APPEARS to be wrong.

As such, the underdog enters round 2 with fresh parts, and re-adjusted hoses, etc. The match favorite enters with equipment that has been stressed, but hasn't failed yet.

As a result, the underdog bot lands a few blows, and suddenly the "winning" bot blows its actuators, breaks in half, etc.

This pattern where the round 1 loser (who was also the under dog in virtually every case) wins round 2, and often in a KO because of how fast it happens in the round.

I posit that the the Round 1 winner, would be better served to replace its actuators, etc as if they were blown, just like the Round 1 losers are doing. This results in a greater probability of reduced failure, by brute force changing of parts that causes a sequence of improvement behaviors that are more effective than doing a once over with a wrench.

this would be akin to why a Nascar pit crew replaces all the tires on a car, whether they need them or not. then entire process of swapping out all the tires and putting lug nuts back on bypasses enough problems, that inspection and simple tightening may miss.

If you doubt my theory, go back and look at the rankings. Virtually ever winner thus far has been the Underdog team that lost the initial time trials and each one demonstrated teamwork, communication or control issues. Their opponents, aside from suffering from overconfidence all demonstrated good teamwork, communication and control of their bots.

How is it then, that these "losers" eke out victory more than 50% of the time?

I can't find the ranking and tournament tree they show on TV, but it stood out as I watched the fights. I can't say it was "every" fight, but it was obvious enough that the show would comment how the underdogs were coming out on top in previous fights.

the Losers-win paradox was also strongest in the first match, where nobody knew what to do, so they had less to expect that if you don't see anything wrong on your bot, that doesn't mean he's OK. The winners of round 1 were almost always looking at "very little" damage on their bot. They were also the higher ranked team in their match.

think of it this way. Let's say each Actuator has a 2:30 mean time to failure in a fight. Some die early, some die late. But either way, the regular shocks to the entire bot and direct hits cause it to average out to an eventual death.

So in round 1, the top-ranked team wins as expected. The underdog took more hits, reducing that 2:30 lifespan meaning, they blow an actuator near the end of Round 1. Break happens, and the underdog races to repair the obvious damage.

The top-team looks at their bot. Looks fine. Tighten up a few bolts, because we all saw what happened in the first match, where the leading team blew actuators out right away in Round 2. Either way, they don't see anything obvious to fix, to there's a limit to what they'll be doing. They don't know that their actuator has about 30 seconds of fighting life in it.

So, Round 2 starts and the underdog scores a few hits. Boom, that 30-seconds-left actuator goes out on the lead-team. meanwhile, the underdog's actuators still have about 2 minutes of fight time on them. So the lead-team now has 1:30 left to fight with one arm. Nevermind that their other arm's actuator is equally stressed and due to blow out any moment now. Before you know it, splat, there it goes, and the underdog wins with a TKO with 30 seconds or so on the clock for Round 2.

Is there more to it than this, for this pattern. Probably. But it is a contributing factor to the unlikely pattern than defective teams are beating effective teams more than half the time.
 

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Well, you are going by what gets shown, which tends to focus on the bot with the most damage, but both teams have the same time to do maintenance and switch out parts if they feel it is warranted. Furthermore, the rankings are based on how they initially did against the sparring bots, and it does get more play from the commentators, but I don't put much stock in that since, in the end, it is two 800 lb, 8-foot tall bots slugging it out and any punch can conceivably take out the other. I wouldn't try to do too much of a scientific analysis based on the limited information that gets shown. Let's also remember that the editing to make it seem even more as if an underdog has a chance is part of what they want to portray for the show and not necessarily what is happening in the hundreds of hours of footage they decide not to show.

Anyway, I just like the bots and seeing what this next step in robotics might be bringing to the masses. Anything that gets youngsters excited about robotics is a good thing in my opinion. We need to study them in case we wind up on Chiron Beta Prime! :)
 

Well, you are going by what gets shown, which tends to focus on the bot with the most damage, but both teams have the same time to do maintenance and switch out parts if they feel it is warranted. Furthermore, the rankings are based on how they initially did against the sparring bots, and it does get more play from the commentators, but I don't put much stock in that since, in the end, it is two 800 lb, 8-foot tall bots slugging it out and any punch can conceivably take out the other.

naturally, I'm using the footage I see.

What I see is that the underdog teams have signs that they are less competent than their opponent. Yet they are winning more often.

I'm also seeing less maint work on the winner of Round 1. Maybe they are doing tune-ups. But I doubt it. Psychologically, they are likely to be prone to looking at the exterior of the components. They can't see the interiors. they can't see stress fractures. So they are likely to think it's all OK, when in reality, they are inches away from the same breakdown the loser of Round 1 suffers.

So, we get my theory of Loser-Wins Scenario. the fact is, the Losers are winning. My theory explains why.

the winning team is entering round 2 with 50% hit points. the losing team of round 1 got an extra healing potion. It's no wonder why they're winning Round 2.
 

What I see is that the underdog teams have signs that they are less competent than their opponent. Yet they are winning more often.

Yes, but how much of them being "underdogs" is in the editing? How much of it is in the choice of what they show, and what ends up on the cutting room floor. How much of the maintenance work is also so determined?

Remember, they're not so much trying to accurately document a competition as they are trying to sell you television. They will slant the presentation to make it look however they think it will keep folks watching. And if they think folks root for underdogs, well, then expect to see underdogs.

Of course, eventually the underdog will be up against another underdog...
 

Yes, but how much of them being "underdogs" is in the editing? How much of it is in the choice of what they show, and what ends up on the cutting room floor. How much of the maintenance work is also so determined?

So you're basically siding with "it must be the editing" instead of what I think is a reasonable technical explanation for the phenomenon?

Basically, choosing a conspiracy theory over a logical explanation?

I have no doubt the "winning" team is trying to double-check their bot. However, as evidenced from the first fight, they totally didn't expect the mean time to failure to hit them. From then, the subsequent bouts got better at checking their bot.

but there's a world of difference in tightening everything up, from yanking the actuators out and replacing them whether you think they are OK or not because of the unseen stresses they were under.

I certainly think my theory is a contributor to the problem.

Which is that "better" teams are actually losing to "worse" teams.

I'm not sure what would fix it, though I think if each team's engineer was more tightly integrated in the original building of the bot, they'd have a better paranoia and understanding of the problems the machine can face. Right now, if Uncle Setrakian ain't there to fix it, there's a limit to what any team can do.
 

So you're basically siding with "it must be the editing" instead of what I think is a reasonable technical explanation for the phenomenon?

Basically, choosing a conspiracy theory over a logical explanation?

Actually, the more I think about it, the less I think technical and logical explanations have any meaning.

RCL isn't supposed to be the next Battlebots; it's not about the engineering or the robots. RCL is designed to attract the WWE crowd; it's about the build up, the personalities, and the show. That's why there are fireworks in the bots to show explosions, that's why they make sure the hydraulic fluid is highly visible, and that's why you can assume the drama is scripted and the outcomes of the battles are at least partially planned out.
 

So you're basically siding with "it must be the editing" instead of what I think is a reasonable technical explanation for the phenomenon?

Basically, choosing a conspiracy theory over a logical explanation?

Here's the thing - we *know* there's an editing process on the show. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it is fact. That's how reality TV is done - they take a whole lot of footage, and then crop down and rearrange to what'll make good TV. The only theorizing is how much they alter perception of events on this particular show.

Which is that "better" teams are actually losing to "worse" teams.

Why is this a problem? This isn't like a regulated athletic event. This is entertainment - it's hosted in part by a WWE wrestler. That should be setting your expectations, should it not?
 

Here's the thing - we *know* there's an editing process on the show. This isn't a conspiracy theory, it is fact. That's how reality TV is done - they take a whole lot of footage, and then crop down and rearrange to what'll make good TV. The only theorizing is how much they alter perception of events on this particular show.



Why is this a problem? This isn't like a regulated athletic event. This is entertainment - it's hosted in part by a WWE wrestler. That should be setting your expectations, should it not?

Because Hulk Hogan doesn't lose to the Poet or some jobber. that would be crappy wrestling entertainment.

It's not entertaining to see skill defeated by luck regularly.

This show isn't as staged as WWE is. The bots all use identical frames and parts. only the exo skeletons differ. Which means skill and luck are the greater differentiators than bot builds (unlike BattleBots where technical differences are also at play).

to me the problem is more that there's resistance to my idea that just maybe, there's an extra variable to why more "winners" lose in Round 2. My theory doesn't explain everything, but I'm getting the vibe from y'all that you don't like science and rational explanations, which for you is normally quite unlikely.

So yes, I'm sure the editing is creating a bias on how the viewer percieves each team based on their initial ranking.

but that material exists for them to make the underdog look less competent.

And the underdogs are having bad first rounds.

Despite that, they are winning Round 2 more often.

Is it that hard to acknowledge that I may have determined a contributing factor? really?
 

And the underdogs are having bad first rounds.

Despite that, they are winning Round 2 more often.
You keep saying those things, but I'm not even sure who you are talking about. Who are the underdogs? The initial challenge to determine the rankings had nothing to do with fighting skills. It was a pure speed test with very little precision involved. Did you see how some of the teams were getting the time? Some didn't even hit the target and still got assigned a time. Ashley hit the shoulder. Amanda looked to be hitting either the side of the chest or the arm. The teams that got the best times just ran at the dummy with their arms forward.
 

You keep saying those things, but I'm not even sure who you are talking about. Who are the underdogs? The initial challenge to determine the rankings had nothing to do with fighting skills. It was a pure speed test with very little precision involved. Did you see how some of the teams were getting the time? Some didn't even hit the target and still got assigned a time. Ashley hit the shoulder. Amanda looked to be hitting either the side of the chest or the arm. The teams that got the best times just ran at the dummy with their arms forward.

that was like a month ago when I saw the first episode. What I saw was some teams were coordinated. some were not. The underdogs scored low on that first test. And they had ongoing defective behaviors in the ring during their real match. Thus, many of them remain underdogs.

Unfortunately, the syfy site doesn't keep up the same tournament brackets as they skim over on the show, to more readily identify (or confirm) what I'm talking about.

Now last night's match was pretty good with Axe vs. the bladed bot. Both teams had teamwork, tactics, and competence. I think team Axe made a mistake in choosing a strong team to fight, but cest la vie.

An educational discovery is that the bots all have like 5 actuators that connect the chest to the hips. That's why Commander (or whatever his name was) got chopped in half, and why Axe got the same fate. Take those out, and the bot crumples.

I'm more suprised that there's a limit on how many acuators Setrakian can spend on a bot to repair it. Or that they can't block the actuators up (put it a solid metal stub), for lost mobility, but functional rigidity.

Put it this way, can you really say team Crash is a contender (the orange bot run by the father-daughter nerds)? They talk big, but present less actual prowess in the first fight. We'll see how their second fight fairs.
 

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