D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[JamesonCourage]

Calls for moderation should probably be moved to the Meta forum. I think it's somewhat warranted, at some points, and I've even reported people who threadcrap on 4e within the past day. But it's probably not appropriate, here, and I don't want anyone getting in trouble for bringing it up. As always, play what you like

 

[billd91]

"You guys"? I have "guys"? When did that happen?

I'm just me, I'm not part of some collective hive mind. I know all us people who like 4e may look the same to you, but I'm really just me. And I'm pretty darn sure I didn't start it.

-O

I don't care who started it. You're tossing around trolling labels as if you're arguing in support of Nemesis Destiny, who is painting with a pretty broad brush about 4e critics. Why not follow DMZ2112's advice and ignore it if you disagree with someone else's opinion. If the person really is trolling, you're just falling for his manipulations. And if they really are honestly expressing their opinion, you're not likely to change it and pretty much definitely won't if you're insinuating he's a dick for having it.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

...in support of Nemesis Destiny, who is painting with a pretty broad brush about 4e critics.

I don't know how broad it really is. There are people being inflammatory, and it's been taking a certain slant. I don't think it's a far cry to call it like it is. I certainly don't think it applies to everyone making criticism.

 

[Obryn]

I don't care who started it. You're tossing around trolling labels as if you're arguing in support of Nemesis Destiny, who is painting with a pretty broad brush about 4e critics. Why not follow DMZ2112's advice and ignore it if you disagree with someone else's opinion. If the person really is trolling, you're just falling for his manipulations. And if they really are honestly expressing their opinion, you're not likely to change it and pretty much definitely won't if you're insinuating he's a dick for having it.

If others disagree with my opinions, I kind of expect them to say it This is a discussion board, after all. If I disagree with someone, I'll say it. Because, discussion board.

I don't know why this is controversial. I agree it's pleasant never to be challenged on an opinion, but I wasn't really under the impression that was the point.

So here we go down the rabbit hole - if you think I'm trolling, why are you falling for my manipulations? If you think I am honestly expressing my opinion, you are not likely to change it, so why are you responding? How does your post - really, any of your posts - fit into the philosophy you're espousing?

-O

 

[billd91]

I don't know how broad it really is. There are people being inflammatory, and it's been taking a certain slant. I don't think it's a far cry to call it like it is. I certainly don't think it applies to everyone making criticism.

But how can we tell who you are considering a h4ter and who is just a critic? I can't tell from your post who you mean. There are plenty of critics of 4e on these forums - just as there are plenty of critics of 3e, 3.5e, PF, and the Next play test. Who has crossed Nemesis Destiny's troll/h4ter threshold?

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

But how can we tell who you are considering a h4ter and who is just a critic? I can't tell from your post who you mean. There are plenty of critics of 4e on these forums - just as there are plenty of critics of 3e, 3.5e, PF, and the Next play test. Who has crossed Nemesis Destiny's troll/h4ter threshold?

That's kind of the point. It's not something suitable for public discussion; it gets very personal, very quickly and is against the rules. I've reported posts that I think are pushing it, I've ignored others. If people meet the descriptor, they know who they are. I was speaking in general terms about what the mood has been like around here lately.

 

[billd91]

If others disagree with my opinions, I kind of expect them to say it This is a discussion board, after all. If I disagree with someone, I'll say it. Because, discussion board.

I don't know why this is controversial. I agree it's pleasant never to be challenged on an opinion, but I wasn't really under the impression that was the point.

So here we go down the rabbit hole - if you think I'm trolling, why are you falling for my manipulations? If you think I am honestly expressing my opinion, you are not likely to change it, so why are you responding? How does your post - really, any of your posts - fit into the philosophy you're espousing?

-O

I would say that there's no need to confront an opinion or even a troll. Going back to your early post, ignoring it isn't condoning it at all, particularly on a message board in which there's no way for most observers to tell you've even viewed the expressed opinion. Interact if you want an honest discussion, not because you need to confront someone. An honest opinion doesn't need to be confronted. A troll gets the rise he's looking for if he is confronted.

 

[billd91]

That's kind of the point. It's not something suitable for public discussion; it gets very personal, very quickly and is against the rules. I've reported posts that I think are pushing it, I've ignored others. If people meet the descriptor, they know who they are. I was speaking in general terms about what the mood has been like around here lately.

A lot of those cases of "speaking in general terms" is how we get to the mood around here. Before you know it, someone's nose is out of joint because they felt they were personally targeted by one of those comments in general terms when they thought they were being honest (even if bluntly so). Either we all have to just learn to let it go or we all have to stop talking in general terms about people's behavior... or maybe (maybe even probably) both.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

A lot of those cases of "speaking in general terms" is how we get to the mood around here. Before you know it, someone's nose is out of joint because they felt they were personally targeted by one of those comments in general terms when they thought they were being honest (even if bluntly so). Either we all have to just learn to let it go or we all have to stop talking in general terms about people's behavior... or maybe (maybe even probably) both.

The thing is, we shouldn't even need to be having this discussion. There are rules in place that are not being followed and nothing is being done about it.

I would say that there's no need to confront an opinion or even a troll. Going back to your early post, ignoring it isn't condoning it at all, particularly on a message board in which there's no way for most observers to tell you've even viewed the expressed opinion. Interact if you want an honest discussion, not because you need to confront someone. An honest opinion doesn't need to be confronted. A troll gets the rise he's looking for if he is confronted.

I think the point is not that users should be confronting those posts/posters, but moderation should be. Particularly with a "strict" no edition-warring policy. But we're not seeing that. How else does a forum send the message that that behaviour is not tolerated? I understand his frustration.

This conversation is ban-bait and going nowhere good. I'm out.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

Very much this.

The fact that a lot of the modules were not put together to take advantage of 4e's strengths certainly don't help matters any.

While I'm not interested in Next, per se, I think it's really important that Next has some good adventures to go right from the very beginning.

Next cannot afford to begin with a 5E equivalent of Keep on the Shadowfell - or the later but just as ignominous Pyramid of Shadows - because I think it was the single greatest piece of evangelism for Pathfinder. I mean, KotS was crap. That's not insulting it. That's describing it. Look at it: it seems like it was specifically designed to highlight the worst parts of 4E. That's bizarre.

(Ironically, both of those adventures I mentioned had Mike Mearls as the author. For the sake of the D&D brand I hope he doesn't write the first couple of adventures for Next....)

I just read the Mines of Madness adventure that came with the latest playtest package. It's interesting. Great map. Very deadly. Lots of opportunities to explore in a Caverns of Thracia-ish sort of way. Now that's the sort of introductory adventure that Next is going to need. How I wish we had had The Slaying Stone or Reavers of Harkenwold right out of the gate for 4E. We might not be talking about Next right now if that were the case....

@AbdulAlhazred I think we've talked about this before, but I honestly don't trust the current design team with making us that 4e redux. I'm not sure they ever really "got" what they created to begin with, if the adventures, design decisions, overall mishandling of the edition, and direction of 5e are any indication. I can't say I honestly believe any, save Chris Perkins, ever ran a campaign through Epic. I don't think they logged nearly as many play hours as you, or I, or @Nemesis Destiny , or any number of the 4e fans on the boards.

As an aside boys, how about Black Sheep as the name for a 4e heartbreaker hehe?

I agree with all of your points. I still remember going through the first Monster Manual after I had a year or so of DMing under my belt and, as I reviewed the monsters, I felt like I was looking at four different revisions of the rules. And that was in a single book. Clearly it was rushed out the door but the later stuff was simply brilliant (obviously IMO). At least Next isn't being rushed.

However, in the interests of being positive about 4E, I want to name a 4E heartbreaker Black Swan instead.