D&D 5E D&D Next Q&A: Caster Level, Multiclassing & The Apprentice Tier

[Ratskinner]

I made fly (in 3e) only apply to items. Brooms, buckets, carpets, etc....

Must spread XP, apparently. If I run 3e-ish again, I'm peaching this idea.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Must spread XP, apparently. If I run 3e-ish again, I'm peaching this idea.

I XP'd it already, and hadn't even gotten to your post yet. It's an interesting way to approach things. As always, play what you like

 

[Blue]

I couldn't agree more. One of the things that I absolutely loved about 4e was that it pushed some of the world altering magic to a higher level or into rituals. This made the game so much more...organic and flexible in how one wanted to approach the world building. Of course, there was plenty of short term/range magical wahoo at the tactical level (what with the nightcrawler-esque bamfs of warlocks and High Elves and whatnot), but that was much easier to deal with most of the time.

To me, an entire race with 1st level teleporting every five minutes in 4e was much more of world-building issue than caster-only fly a few times a day at 5th in other editions. Suddenly windows were a major security/theft risk, even if barred. It made a world that either needed massively common anti-teleport or everyone to be pasty white from being in windowless rooms in order to provide security. When a bandit band could send in a few teleporter to unbar doors and gates no place was safe if it could let them in. Heck, a door with too wide of a gap at the bottom could let a thief in.

Ugh.

 

[Iosue]

You've misunderstood the complaint about Apprentice Tier; it was never about amount of time played. The actual complaint is that (if implemented) we'd be getting 17 levels of content versus 20, since most veteran players will be starting at level 3 (Mike's words from his column).

Yes, but the 2 levels of content here amount to two sessions, after which everyone who's started at Apprentice Tier has all the bells and whistles of someone starting at the Adventurer Tier. If PCs are considered too weak or too simplistic for those two sessions, then I fail to see the problem with just playing those two sessions with the full range of class abilities. The only thing missing is spending those two sessions with simpler characters that that group doesn't want to play with anyway.

When the game is designed to linger on levels 1 and 2 for a while, I fully understand not wanting to start on level 3. When the game is designed to start from Level 3, with Levels 1 and 2 as a two-session introduction, I don't see the issue.

 

[Raith5]

To me, an entire race with 1st level teleporting every five minutes in 4e was much more of world-building issue than caster-only fly a few times a day at 5th in other editions. Suddenly windows were a major security/theft risk, even if barred. It made a world that either needed massively common anti-teleport or everyone to be pasty white from being in windowless rooms in order to provide security. When a bandit band could send in a few teleporter to unbar doors and gates no place was safe if it could let them in. Heck, a door with too wide of a gap at the bottom could let a thief in.

Ugh.

100% agree. I really like 4th ed (and I am liking it even more when I look at DDN) but a 1st level racial ability to teleport is world building issue that you note it also seems very mechanically powerful. I wouldnt mind it as a 7th or 8th level power but at 1st it cheapens what should should be a dramatic use of magical power. It just seems strange to lift the level of teleporting and flying magic in 4th ed, then turn around a give a race a first level ability to teleport. Surely Eladrins could have gotten something else.

 

[Li Shenron]

I made fly (in 3e) only apply to items. Brooms, buckets, carpets, etc....

This is great for flavor, but certainly doesn't help people who have issues with flying characters.

One of my pet peeve's with most editions with D&D is that you have high level casters who can turn themselves invisible and scry to find their enemy a world away and then teleport to them and fly over them and rain down attack spells (or whatever other type of spell they want to cast) from on high. None of which feels like anything I've ever encountered in fantasy literature, television, or films.

I'd much prefer a spell system that severely limits these types of spells, both in their usage and availability.

Since the combo you describe takes maybe 5 spells to be pulled off, I have a hard time thinking of a system that restricts a high-level caster to less than such amount of spells known, prepared and per day, unless it has a very low magic setting.

 

[Bluenose]

Since the combo you describe takes maybe 5 spells to be pulled off, I have a hard time thinking of a system that restricts a high-level caster to less than such amount of spells known, prepared and per day, unless it has a very low magic setting.

I wouldn't say it's the number of spells known, or the number you can cast in a spell point or similar system. It's the amount of power they have, and the ability to do the same damn thing day after day with no difficulty. I could duplicate the things [MENTION=3576]am181d[/MENTION] speaks of in Runequest in more than one way, but I'm certainly not able to expend that much magic one day and be able to do the same thing on the next. And it's not as if Runequest is a low-magic system by default, Glorantha having a lot more magic around than most D&D settings. I don't think Exalted characters get that powerful through Sorcery - it was certainly the opinion of the D&D player in my Exalted game that his sorceror wasn't as powerful as he expected. It's a level of power - repeatable, reliable power - that I've only really seen in Magical Girl anime.

 

[Li Shenron]

I wouldn't say it's the number of spells known, or the number you can cast in a spell point or similar system. It's the amount of power they have, and the ability to do the same damn thing day after day with no difficulty. I could duplicate the things [MENTION=3576]am181d[/MENTION] speaks of in Runequest in more than one way, but I'm certainly not able to expend that much magic one day and be able to do the same thing on the next.

That would be an interesting variation... and reminds me of a 3ed house rule we had in the past, that spells with an XP cost worked so that instead of spending XP, you had to wait as many days before casting that spell again, which among other things meant only 1 Wish per 13 years or so .

 

[Sage Genesis]

I don't think Exalted characters get that powerful through Sorcery - it was certainly the opinion of the D&D player in my Exalted game that his sorceror wasn't as powerful as he expected. It's a level of power - repeatable, reliable power - that I've only really seen in Magical Girl anime.

This is true and hints at the real issues that make D&D casters so powerful: they can get a lot of magic going on, which persist for a long time, they can do so reliably, they can do so quickly, and they can do so risk-free. And on top of all that, your opponents often don't have any abilities to deal with you. Only another spellcaster has any hope of defeating scry-and-fry tactics, save perhaps for some highly overspecialized prestige classes that kind of manage to get by.

In Exalted there are very powerful spells, but they eat enormous amount of magical energy and by default require multiple rounds of casting (which also renders them vulnerable to disruption). Learning magic also is a greater investment than in D&D.

In Magical Girl anime there typically aren't scrying spells and long-range teleports available.

In Harry Potter your opponents are typically other wizards, who have various methods at their disposal to counter you. Magic also operates a bit differently from what you see in D&D.

I actually have a hard time of thinking of any setting or game in which spellcasters are as almighty as D&D. Superhero comics spring to mind, but at least the mutants and aliens have their own tricks to level the playing field.

 

[Nellisir]

This is great for flavor, but certainly doesn't help people who have issues with flying characters.

Bump fly up a level or two. And drop the speed to the character's normal speed. (I did those too).