D&D 5E (2014) D&D Next Q&A: Caster Level, Multiclassing & The Apprentice Tier

Bump fly up a level or two. And drop the speed to the character's normal speed. (I did those too).

I would be fine with these changes.

Alternatively, they could still have a Fly spell at 3rd as long as it doesn't allow for extreme travelling and it doesn't dominate combat. For the first, I'd drop the duration to 1 minute or even less. For the second, it should require Focus, because requiring Concentration helps but is not enough.
 

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I think they've got a nice mechanic to stop spells like Fly from dominating:

Concentration.

They've mentioned using this as a way to limit buff-stacking, as well. And it makes a LOT of in-world sense (magic is a delicate thing).

If Fly takes a standard action to sustain, or if you can't cast a spell while you're sustaining another, or something along those lines, we've made it not a combat monstrosity, without throwing out the baby with the bathwater and ditching it entirely.
 

I think they've got a nice mechanic to stop spells like Fly from dominating:

Concentration.

They've mentioned using this as a way to limit buff-stacking, as well. And it makes a LOT of in-world sense (magic is a delicate thing).

If Fly takes a standard action to sustain, or if you can't cast a spell while you're sustaining another, or something along those lines, we've made it not a combat monstrosity, without throwing out the baby with the bathwater and ditching it entirely.

They still need to carefully check the implications of these rules IMHO...

IIRC Concentration doesn't prevent casting of another spell but only of another spell that also requires concentration. This includes casting the same spell on a different target, so one effect of Concentration on Fly is no more casting this on the whole party (unless of course there are other wizards who can cast one each, or wands or other items that can cast more Fly for you). So it is indeed primarily meant to limit buff-stacking, and in case of Fly it prevents its use for overland travel for the whole party, however it still doesn't prevent it for one character.

OTOH Focus was mentioned in some L&L articles but wasn't included in any packets, and I don't remember but it could have been similar to 3e concentration i.e. requiring you to spend your round's action to sustain the effect, which is much harsher of course.
 

Alternatively, they could still have a Fly spell at 3rd as long as it doesn't allow for extreme travelling and it doesn't dominate combat. For the first, I'd drop the duration to 1 minute or even less. For the second, it should require Focus, because requiring Concentration helps but is not enough.
Would work for me. I don't want to completely kill fly, I just want it to be rare and not a go-to condition. Short duration (1 rnd/level?) would help.
 

They still need to carefully check the implications of these rules IMHO...

IIRC Concentration doesn't prevent casting of another spell but only of another spell that also requires concentration. This includes casting the same spell on a different target, so one effect of Concentration on Fly is no more casting this on the whole party (unless of course there are other wizards who can cast one each, or wands or other items that can cast more Fly for you). So it is indeed primarily meant to limit buff-stacking, and in case of Fly it prevents its use for overland travel for the whole party, however it still doesn't prevent it for one character.

OTOH Focus was mentioned in some L&L articles but wasn't included in any packets, and I don't remember but it could have been similar to 3e concentration i.e. requiring you to spend your round's action to sustain the effect, which is much harsher of course.

Sure, I was advocating more for a position on what it could be and less for what it might currently be. Basically, there's a lot of ways to ensure flight doesn't make the character invincible that doesn't also effectively remove it as a tool.
 

If you need ten minutes to get your party to fly out of the exploding volcano, the DM has no choice but to alter the flow of the lava to suit the game rules, or just kill you.
In 4e, Overland Flight is a 20th level ritual. At 16th level, sorcerers have Dominant Winds at-will, to fly themselves or an ally as a move action; at 22nd level, wizards have Mass Fly to give the whole party flight as a standard action. So I would say that if the players find their PCs trapped in an exploding volcano with not enough time to cast Overland Flight, but no other quicker options for flying out of there, they need to revisit their power selections!

one of the biggest things that will effect how well apprentice tier works will be how hit points scale. If survivability and complexity are tied together closely, that might be a serious issue.
I completely agree, and was saying as much in the earlier L&L thread discussing apprentice tier. My view is that newbies need low complexity but high survivability.

In that other thread the idea was put forward by various posters that low hp aren't a problem, because the GM can just modulate encounter difficulty, but my own view is that when the numbers get small enough relative to damage dice, it starts to become pretty random. (Eg in the current playtest a goblin shortbow does 4 hp on a hit, which means that an encounter with 3 or 4 bow-armed goblins doesn't bode all that well for a 1st level wizard, especially if they get to "bushwhack" that wizard, attacking with advantage.)
 

They still need to carefully check the implications of these rules IMHO...

IIRC Concentration doesn't prevent casting of another spell but only of another spell that also requires concentration. This includes casting the same spell on a different target, so one effect of Concentration on Fly is no more casting this on the whole party (unless of course there are other wizards who can cast one each, or wands or other items that can cast more Fly for you). So it is indeed primarily meant to limit buff-stacking, and in case of Fly it prevents its use for overland travel for the whole party, however it still doesn't prevent it for one character.

OTOH Focus was mentioned in some L&L articles but wasn't included in any packets, and I don't remember but it could have been similar to 3e concentration i.e. requiring you to spend your round's action to sustain the effect, which is much harsher of course.

Very harsh. Kind of good, too, but silly if you want to cast Fly 5 times, one per party member, that should be supported by the game one way or another. My vote is the spell recipient must concentrate, that way you can still buff multiple people, but each one needs to maintain their own buff stack and concentration. Chances are, other party members won't be as good as the wizard to hold concentration, making for a risky air battle. I like! That's fun. I've had my fly spell dispelled once or twice on my AD&D evoker, the first time knocked me out, then I always had feather fall memorized.

You could also make Fly have a duration that says you only fly when you are concentrating, but the duration endures, so that casting another spell (say, an offensive one) requires you to land temporarily. But that very much reminds me of 4e and I want Fly to be good again. IMO just limiting the duration of the spell and making you lift off only when you're thinking about it is a good compromise, so if you're knocked out mid-air you could fall for a round or two, you regain consciousness then BAM, like Iron Man, re-activate the engines. Wicked!
 
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Gorgoth said:
but silly if you want to cast Fly 5 times, one per party member, that should be supported by the game one way or another.

Mass Flight could be a higher-level spell or a metamagic effect that does the same deal as regular Fly but for more people (so that while you or the target concentrates or maintains focus, the entire party can fly).
 

Very harsh. Kind of good, too, but silly if you want to cast Fly 5 times, one per party member, that should be supported by the game one way or another. My vote is the spell recipient must concentrate, that way you can still buff multiple people, but each one needs to maintain their own buff stack and concentration.

I am under the impression that the designers might want to prevent that to happen: they want to prevent stacking buffs on each PC and they want to prevent or at least restrict mass effects that can alter the whole course of the adventure (although teleport spells are still mass-affecting at the moment).

On one hand, I think mass effects are valid tactics so it is not completely fair that the game specifically prevents them.

On the other hand, I really hate seeing the whole party of PC fly... I hate combat with flying characters because it's usually a nightmare to run, and even if it had simple rules it would still look silly. I don't think it adds anything interesting compared to fighting on the ground. OTOH a combat where some monsters are flying and the PCs are not is indeed interesting and may worth the DM's effort.

The other use of fly that I hate is the overland travel. I don't care at what level it happens, the look & feel of it will always be plain lame to me. It's not that I am against the PCs findind a way to bypass distances and terrain, it's just that when this is done by casting one spell and go, it feels like it wasn't earned at all... It's an entirely different matter if you have to find ad-hoc means for that, be it capturing and taming flying creatures to ride, or obtaining a precious flying carpet.

As you can see, I am torn apart between wanting to allow the mass tactic for groups that are fine with it, and not wanting to have boring situations in our game.

You could also make Fly have a duration that says you only fly when you are concentrating, but the duration endures, so that casting another spell (say, an offensive one) requires you to land temporarily. But that very much reminds me of 4e and I want Fly to be good again.

This could be fine in my games if the whole duration is also max 1 minute or so. I would be ok with a Fly spell in the game that can be used to reach a difficult spot or to bypass a single terrain obstacle. Something that would be basically an improved version of the Jump and Levitate spell. It's when used in combat or for overland flight that it becomes lame for my tastes.

Mass Flight could be a higher-level spell or a metamagic effect that does the same deal as regular Fly but for more people (so that while you or the target concentrates or maintains focus, the entire party can fly).

I was also thinking of a metamagic feat, there was something like that in 3ed, or even better a special feature of a single wizard tradition. It could fit with a battle mage that is more focused on group tactics than mere blast spells.
 

I use a few basic rules for flight in my RPG:
(1) Universal: It takes a move action to fly (hover -if you can- or move).
(2) Universal: Ranged attacks are a full-round action while flying (most people can't do both, obviously, without other feats or abilities to help them out).
(3) Spells (only Movement specialists): It takes a standard action (move at very high levels) of the creature that is going to fly to be able to use the ability (and then a move action to fly). This takes both actions, and thus no "running" in the air from spells.

Now, I know that "full-round" actions are gone, so I could see a "you can't make ranged attacks" general rule, or something. But, I do know that the standard action / no ranged attacks have made flight, within the fiction, much closer to what I want. I have dragons make maybe one attack while flying (a Heroic Surge or racial ability), but land on a perch to breath more fire, or land to fight. They can bite while flying, no problem. Etc. It's worked well for my game, and I really like it. As always, play what you like :)
 

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