D&D 5E D&DN going down the wrong path for everyone.

[AbdulAlhazred]

All you needed was a 19 Int to cast 9th level spells if I remember correctly.

Now Hussar I'm still not sure where you are getting your info from but game goes from level 1 to 20 so the game is in fact geared for it. You can't ignore levels in order for your argument to be valid. The games default is 1 through 20 so my argument remains perfectly valid and correct. Having access to 4 more levels of spells trumps the elf all day long.

18 INT. 1e actually doesn't contemplate PCs ever going outside the 3-18 range except for a few +1s due to racial bonus that allow for instance an elf with a 19 DEX. In fact you can raise a stat by one using magic, but it is VERY hard and unlikely to come up even once in most campaigns, even then the racial limits apply AFAICT.

As for D&D being 'designed for 1 to 20' this is nonsense. 20th level is not in any way notable in D&D before 3e. Some charts in AD&D go up to level 29 and BECMI has levels that go much higher, though I agree with Hussar that they're more of a separate game. The point is you can't really point at a specific rule that marks a cutoff in levels, by AD&D rules a character can continue to advance forever, though there are few specific advantages to levels beyond 17th. This is interesting because what it means in a practical sense is you can't say that the rules are very much evidence of anything one way or the other as to what level the game was designed for. Clearly for wizards there are substantial rules for up to level 17 (9th level spell acquisition). OTOH even wizards get very little else after level 12 and the 7th level spells they have at 13th are very nearly as potent as 9th level spells (and were in fact at one time in OD&D considered "magic beyond what PCs can do"). Personally I've always considered levels beyond 9th 'capstone' levels, and beyond 13th pretty much just filler material that is rarely used in play for PCs but is more useful as a way to gauge the power of super high level enemies.

 

[Mournblade94]

Hussar actually pointed this out in his post. The level limit for an elf in Gygax's PHB is 11th with 18 INT; my guess, relying on memory without the book in front of me, would be that this drops to 9th level if INT is 16 or lower. But how many AD&D games hit that level cap? Very very few; which was Hussar's point.

I am interested too know where all these people registered their campaigns. I mean I never once got to register my 25th level AD&D campaign, or how long it went for.

The Forgotten Realms developers obviously had this registry because they used that information to determine WHERE in the realms individual games were set.

It is said time and again that no game goes to X level, or we got rid of Mulhhorand because people don't run campaigns there.

I just wish I registered my campaigns so WOTC would have known I had 1- 25th level games, and I also ran campaigns in the Egyptian area of the Forgotten Realms.

Might have lead them to make better design decisions at least on the Forgotten Realms front.

 

[jadrax]

I am interested too know where all these people registered their campaigns. I mean I never once got to register my 25th level AD&D campaign, or how long it went for.

Really? But how did you claim the money?

Don't tell me you were running it for FREE all that time?

 

[ForeverSlayer]

18 INT. 1e actually doesn't contemplate PCs ever going outside the 3-18 range except for a few +1s due to racial bonus that allow for instance an elf with a 19 DEX. In fact you can raise a stat by one using magic, but it is VERY hard and unlikely to come up even once in most campaigns, even then the racial limits apply AFAICT.

As for D&D being 'designed for 1 to 20' this is nonsense. 20th level is not in any way notable in D&D before 3e. Some charts in AD&D go up to level 29 and BECMI has levels that go much higher, though I agree with Hussar that they're more of a separate game. The point is you can't really point at a specific rule that marks a cutoff in levels, by AD&D rules a character can continue to advance forever, though there are few specific advantages to levels beyond 17th. This is interesting because what it means in a practical sense is you can't say that the rules are very much evidence of anything one way or the other as to what level the game was designed for. Clearly for wizards there are substantial rules for up to level 17 (9th level spell acquisition). OTOH even wizards get very little else after level 12 and the 7th level spells they have at 13th are very nearly as potent as 9th level spells (and were in fact at one time in OD&D considered "magic beyond what PCs can do"). Personally I've always considered levels beyond 9th 'capstone' levels, and beyond 13th pretty much just filler material that is rarely used in play for PCs but is more useful as a way to gauge the power of super high level enemies.

It's not nonsense. Stop trying to ignore levels to validate your argument. Go and crack open your books and you will see the classes go from level one to twenty. You can't ignore the levels that are there nor can you assume that just because you didn't make it that others didn't.

What you are saying is nonsense.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's not nonsense. Stop trying to ignore levels to validate your argument. Go and crack open your books and you will see the classes go from level one to twenty. You can't ignore the levels that are there nor can you assume that just because you didn't make it that others didn't.

What you are saying is nonsense.

Ummmmm, nonsense. There is nothing in 1e that breaks off a level 20. Lets look at the fighter first, which is on page 22 of the 1e PHB. The "FIGHTERS TABLE" goes from level 1 ot level 11, and then states that every level beyond that is whatever whatever whatever. The next one I'm looking at is the "MAGIC-USERS TABLE 1." on page 25. This table extends to level 18, and then again explains what to do "for each additional level" (and it could in fact have been broken off at level 11, but whatever). The table "SPELLS USABLE BY CLASS AND LEVEL -- MAGIC-USERS" on the next page extends to 29th level. I could go on, but the point is there is NO level 20 cutoff in AD&D (or any other pre 3.0 edition).

 

[Ahnehnois]

Definitely not getting the impression that 5e is heading down the right path for everyone.

 

[Hussar]

All you needed was a 19 Int to cast 9th level spells if I remember correctly.

Now Hussar I'm still not sure where you are getting your info from but game goes from level 1 to 20 so the game is in fact geared for it. You can't ignore levels in order for your argument to be valid. The games default is 1 through 20 so my argument remains perfectly valid and correct. Having access to 4 more levels of spells trumps the elf all day long.

Citation please. Can you show me a single piece of evidence for 20th level being significant in any pre-3e version of D&D?

 

[pemerton]

but we are comparing wizards here and being able to reach beyond 11th is a huge advantage with that particular class.

Not if you never get there.

I am interested too know where all these people registered their campaigns. I mean I never once got to register my 25th level AD&D campaign, or how long it went for.

Please please please don't use the "well how many games actually get that far" line to justify an argument. I can tell you that our games went to 20 but that's not the point. The point is that the game is geared for levels 1 through 20 and being able to have access to high level spells trumps any advantage an elf may have.

It's not a benefit if you never get to those levels.

On the "geared to 20th level" thing, I assume you are talking about the 2nd ed AD&D PHB. 1st ed AD&D, as [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] has pointed out, has no such "gearing". (And even 2nd ed AD&D isn't actuallly designed to be playable at those levels, given it's architecture is more-or-less identical to 1st ed AD&D).

On the "how many games got to those level", here is Ryan Dancey's data from the famours WotC market research:

Years playing       Average Sessions before Restart (New Characters)

                       
<=1 Year                          8.8
>1-5 Years                       12.9
>5 Years                          19.6

Total                                15.4

Given the typical rate of levelling would be quite a bit less than one level per session, I think we can see that the typical game is not reaching 20th level!

There is nothing in 1e that breaks off a level 20.

Go and crack open your books and you will see the classes go from level one to twenty.

I'm pretty sure you two are opening different books. ForeverSlayer is talking about 2nd ed AD&D; AbdulAlhazred about 1st ed AD&D.

Also, Abdul, you have made a mistake with high level MU spells. In Gygax's PHB, wizard'gs gett 1st to 5th level spelss at 1st to 9th level, as you said, but then it flips to an even-numbered progression ie 6th level spells at 12th level through to 9th level spells at 18th level (Archmage).

Remember that in AD&D, wizards made a very specific tradeoff: Frailty and weakness at the low levels, in exchange for godlike power at the high levels. I think this is a lousy way to do game balance, but accepting that the game was balanced that way, racial level limits became a big deal for the elf wizard. Your tribulations at the low levels might be reduced, but you still had to go through that period of weakness, and unlike the human wizard you never got to reap the rewards.

In my own play experience the rewards kicked in somewere around 5th to 9th level (Fireball, Confusion, Charm Monster, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud), and an elf or even half-elf wizard got to play to those levels.

 

[Hussar]

I am interested too know where all these people registered their campaigns. I mean I never once got to register my 25th level AD&D campaign, or how long it went for.

The Forgotten Realms developers obviously had this registry because they used that information to determine WHERE in the realms individual games were set.

It is said time and again that no game goes to X level, or we got rid of Mulhhorand because people don't run campaigns there.

I just wish I registered my campaigns so WOTC would have known I had 1- 25th level games, and I also ran campaigns in the Egyptian area of the Forgotten Realms.

Might have lead them to make better design decisions at least on the Forgotten Realms front.

Hrm, well, it would likely be the fact that the RPGA rarely, if ever sees this level of play.

Or the fact that high level modules sell abysmally compared to low level modules.

Or, I dunno, actually asking gamers what levels their campaigns tend to end at.

 

[Hussar]

It's not nonsense. Stop trying to ignore levels to validate your argument. Go and crack open your books and you will see the classes go from level one to twenty. You can't ignore the levels that are there nor can you assume that just because you didn't make it that others didn't.

What you are saying is nonsense.

Again, citation please. Open your 1e PHB. Please cite any table or rule which cuts off at 20th level.

/edit

Just took Pemerton's advice and looked at the 2e PHB. Yup, the chart does cut off at 20th. Granted, most progression stops at name level - around 10-12th, but, yup the chart is extended for another 8 levels of flat progression.

Still not really seeing how that translates to a 20th level cut off.

[MENTION=17106]Ahnehnois[/MENTION] I'm not sure you can say things like that. It looks a lot more like there is a group of people who are very vocal, but very, very uneducated about the history of the game and what the game actually states. I would say that these posters really should never represent anything more than a fringe of gamers and can be pretty easily ignored.