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D&D 5E So what's the problem with restrictions, especially when it comes to the Paladin?

Can't the Paladin choose to atone for his actions and regain his power??

In 3.5, if he willfully commits (what the DM considers to be) an evil act, he cannot atone.

Even if he can atone, he is expected to do an atonement quest without his paladin powers to do so. If the quest is level-appropriate, this is likely to lead to disaster or at least be no fun for a tactical gamer. For a roleplayer it may be fun, but a roleplayer may take on such a challenge voluntarily, so restrictions for them are pretty much a non-issue.

But the main thing is that most players want the DM to keep his fingers of their PC. The kind of power the DM has over a divine-origin character in 3E is an intrusion into the player's sphere, and this applies most of all to the paladin.
 

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In 3.5, if he willfully commits (what the DM considers to be) an evil act, he cannot atone.

Even if he can atone, he is expected to do an atonement quest without his paladin powers to do so. If the quest is level-appropriate, this is likely to lead to disaster or at least be no fun for a tactical gamer. For a roleplayer it may be fun, but a roleplayer may take on such a challenge voluntarily, so restrictions for them are pretty much a non-issue.

But the main thing is that most players want the DM to keep his fingers of their PC. The kind of power the DM has over a divine-origin character in 3E is an intrusion into the player's sphere, and this applies most of all to the paladin.

A Paladin is still a full BAB melee combatant that has all his feats available and you still have your companions to help you.

Let's not forget that encounters don't function by themselves somehow, the DM has full control.
 

/snip


Because we like them ((RP restrictions)). A paladin who follows the straight and narrow path of righteousness, bound by his oaths before his god. That's awesome mojo to play, right there. It's about art. It's about the meaning of the class. The mechanics are secondary.

Totally agree.

Why does the DM have to police this?
 

Its obvious when the player steps out of bounds. That is not babysitting. Nor is it saying you are playing your character wrong.

It is saying you have broken your oath as a paladin and now you must atone. If it was intentional that is great. If it was unintentional the universe makes you atone. I realize consequences for actions are a bad thing for some players and doing whatever they want is the right action because they are playing.

No, it is not obvious. If it was obvious, then no one in this thread would be disagreeing with you.

Again, Paladin detects evil and kills the target. Is he still a paladin?

Heck, most of adventuring is barely a good act in and of itself. Your group enters the Caves of Chaos, kills the orcs in Cave C (or whichever cave). There are fifteen orc babies. What do you do? Leave them to starve to death? Kill them outright? Try to bring them back with you?

You entered the home of sentient beings, killed everything inside that tried to defend its home, none of the beings in the home were engaged in evil acts at the time they were killed. Are you still a paladin?

Obvious? Not even a little.
 

Totally agree.

Why does the DM have to police this?

I'm not really seeing how "policing" the paladin's restrictions are any different from adjudicating consequences of PC actions. You step off the bridge, you fall in the river. You steal from the royal treasury, you risk the ensuing man hunt. You break your oaths or transgress against your code, you must atone.
 

My second point would be just because a player doesn't roleplay a paladin well doesn't make him a jerk. D&D also has a strong gamist slant and there can be times where a player is faced with a better chance for survival and/or expediency vs. playing a character like the paladin true to its archetyype... If he chooses expediency and survival at some point over the archetype... it doesn't make him a jerk, but he's also not playing the paladin archetype correctly.

agreed.
I'm not really seeing how "policing" the paladin's restrictions are any different from adjudicating consequences of PC actions. You step off the bridge, you fall in the river. You steal from the royal treasury, you risk the ensuing man hunt. You break your oaths or transgress against your code, you must atone.

also agree.
 

Most players of the paladin are not what you describe above. I am glad to read you realize that alignment enforcement on the paladin is not a problem, unless the player is a problem. So we agree then.

It is also a problem when the DM is a problem. Again, the "gotcha" game is not fun.
 

I'm not really seeing how "policing" the paladin's restrictions are any different from adjudicating consequences of PC actions. You step off the bridge, you fall in the river. You steal from the royal treasury, you risk the ensuing man hunt. You break your oaths or transgress against your code, you must atone.
You're basically saying, "there are consequences to action," which is still the same strawman from earlier. Nobody is arguing that there shouldn't be consequences to the PCs' actions.

The fact that actions in RPGs have consequences in no way justifies the Paladin's specific weird list of behavioral restrictions and the consequences for transgression. You're not in any way providing any argument that the Paladin's falling mechanics deserve to exist; you're pre-supposing that they exist and then saying, "well of course if you break those vows, bad stuff happens!"

You're putting the cart before the horse.

-O
 

You're basically saying, "there are consequences to action," which is still the same strawman from earlier. Nobody is arguing that there shouldn't be consequences to the PCs' actions.

The fact that actions in RPGs have consequences in no way justifies the Paladin's specific weird list of behavioral restrictions and the consequences for transgression. You're not in any way providing any argument that the Paladin's falling mechanics deserve to exist; you're pre-supposing that they exist and then saying, "well of course if you break those vows, bad stuff happens!"

You're putting the cart before the horse.
I see it as putting the fiction first, and then making the mechanics to match that. That is, in the fiction, I like that any Paladin that steps off the path loses his powers. To make that match mechanically, we give him a path, and we say "if you step off of this, you lose your Paladin powers."

Sure, you don't have to do it this way when designing the class. But, if the world you want includes "step off this path and lose these powers," then you need a "fall" mechanic. Carrots for staying on the path (fate tokens, divine tokens, whatever) aren't good enough, because you don't lose your powers, and thus the mechanics are not accurately reflecting the fiction.

Now, there's a good debate as to who dictates when the "fall" kicks in, but sometimes it should be obvious, and the GM should have the final say, in my opinion (as with all things). For instance, if the Paladin kills a Good shopkeeper in cold blood to take his stuff without paying for it, and the player says "no, I don't fall," we have a problem with the class living up to how it is fictionally supposed to function. Thus, the GM should be able to say "um, no, you committed blatant murder so you could steal. You lose your powers." Again, in my opinion.

Personally, I know there's a big movement for the carrot rather than the stick, but I like using both. They're both appropriate tools in RPG design at different times (like fail forward and, you know, just failure). And, if the fiction calls for "stick", then go stick.

Is a "fall" mechanic absolutely necessary? Well, for the Paladin that I want to play, absolutely. For many (most?) others? Not so much, and I get that. I'm not sure how they're going to resolve it in 5e, but I think it's not a strawman at all to say "the fiction works this way, so we make mechanics match, and following consequences from actions can determine a fall." Just my thoughts, though. As always, play what you like :)
 

I'm not really seeing how "policing" the paladin's restrictions are any different from adjudicating consequences of PC actions. You step off the bridge, you fall in the river. You steal from the royal treasury, you risk the ensuing man hunt. You break your oaths or transgress against your code, you must atone.

Really?

When I step off the bridge, the rules have pretty exact rules for what happens. I fall and take XdX damage per 10 feet. If I steal from the royal treasury, the DM adjudicates the reactions of the NPC's based on a shared understanding of how the game world works. But, breaking my oaths or transgressing my code requires an extra step. The DM must first believe that I have, in fact, transgressed my code.

If the player disagrees? Too bad. The DM is final arbiter and must police the paladin's actions. The paladin player must play his character according to how the DM feels the character should be played, not how the player feels his character should be played.

You honestly don't see the difference?
 

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