You're doing what? Surprising the DM

Ah. And, you see, I'd stick 3e in the same basic branch as 2e, but 4e in it's own branch. 4e's power structures are rather removed from how the 1e/2e/3e branch designs classes, and those are fairly central to the game. I find it far easier to convert 2e material to 3e, than 3e to 4e, for that reason.

Which is only to say, cladistics aren't as simple as one might think

Really? And, that's an honest question. I've looked at AD&D modules, and when I try to convert them to 3e, they don't work at all. The numbers are completely wrong. The Caves of Chaos become a 7th or 8th level module when you try to convert it, and when I ran the conversion to EX2 Beyond the Magic Mirror, it was a TPK because the AD&D elements just didn't translate very well.

I find the power differential between AD&D and 3e to be a pretty wide gap. A 3rd level AD&D fighter can face off half a dozen orcs and expect to win most of the time. A 3rd level 3e fighter dies far more often than not. The monsters do about three times as much damage in 3e and have about twice as many HP. 3e PC's do not have 3 times as many hit points and aren't doing double a 2e character's damage, by a long shot.

At least, not in single digit levels. It might be different at higher levels, I don't know.

OTOH, I can look at 3e modules, convert them into 4e without a lot of changes and run them.

Just shows how experiences vary. For me, there is almost no points of commonality mechanically between 2e and 3e. Whereas, I found 4e almost instantly recognizable as a d20 game based on 3e mechanics. Like I said, the big difference is in the AEDU structure, but, even that appears in 3e in core - lots of classes have abilities that work like this - a 3e bard for example, and, if you go beyond core, something like Tome of Magic or Tome of Battle works very much like 4e.
 

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/snip


They often happen with some of the group opting out. I find it rare a group wants to go see a movie, one member says "Nah" and the rest decide they will never see that movie.

Totally agree. "Never"? Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem going to see a movie without a friend on a different night. But, I have to admit, when we're all sitting around together in my living room, and someone says, "Hey, let's go see X", if someone said, "Nah, let's not", we wouldn't leave that person at home. We'd just find something else to do.


Three options, rising in severity. What do you expect the besiegers do?

By and large? Nothing until the PC's do something. The PC's are pretty obviously not from the city, and are too small in numbers to constitute a serious threat, so, why would the besiegers even notice them?

A blockade can, as I said, accomplish much the same results as a siege, denying resources to the location to weaken it for later conquest.

Fair enough. So, now the siege is away from the city. Of course, since the blockade is too weak to actually have any direct effect on the city (after all, that's WHY they're not at the city), they are no longer of any real use to the PC's either.

I do recognize all of those things. That siege was OK, another was not.



Because you are not hiring guards. You are hiring people to assist you to go forth and kill a sentient creature. Guards defend. That is not what you are hiring.

Wow. Are really going to get that pedantic? Really? What do you hire when you want to go attack a castle? That's what I want to hire. Whatever you want to call them, that's fine. However, cutthroats and whatnot are generally not what I wanted to hire.

You place a lot of stock in the forthrightness of demonic merchants engaging in full disclosure as a selling strategy.



Or you have the complaint that the GM is just providing two choices, neither of which have player buy-in.

Nothing to add to the rest, really - same logic that everyone I know would already know everyone I have ever met, same disagreement.

How do these choices not have player buy in? They are both providing means to reaching the goal. Both have pros and cons. The players now have a choice to make. What's not bought in about this? Granted, since I know nothing about our hypothetical group, I cannot make any more specific examples, but, at this point, we have two pretty solid choices.

Anything is better than just parachuting them into the desert cold without any buy in at all and then expecting them to interact with every carved stick the DM lays in their way until they finally stumble around long enough that the DM will let them get to their goal.
 

I never had issues converting anything into 3e/PF. I heard complaints a few times about "cool adventure, why does it have to be 4e blah blah" - so what, let's play anyway. Older stuff was even less of an issue.

But then, approximating the stats always was ok for us.
 

Anything is better than just parachuting them into the desert cold without any buy in at all and then expecting them to interact with every carved stick the DM lays in their way until they finally stumble around long enough that the DM will let them get to their goal.
That's as good a summary as any!
 

I never had issues converting anything into 3e/PF. I heard complaints a few times about "cool adventure, why does it have to be 4e blah blah" - so what, let's play anyway. Older stuff was even less of an issue.

But then, approximating the stats always was ok for us.

I have to say I've had pretty good success with Return to the Keep on the Borderlands, The Scourge of the Slavelords, Ravenloft, White Plume Mountain, and Against the Giants. Converting pretty much directly for Giants does lead to a generally higher level expectation for the PCs, but I'm OK with that.
 

[MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION] - is Return to the Keep significantly different from the original? Because the original doesn't translate very well at all. The encounter numbers are all wrong. Heck, there is anencounter with 30 kobolds (room A6) for a 1st level adventure. That's a recipe for a lot of dead PC's in 3e. That's an EL 6 encounter. If there isn't at least one dead PC at the end of that, something's wrong.

It's a 50x40 room, so, at least space wise it'll work in 4e. Although, even if all 30 of the kobolds are minions, I'm still pretty sure I'm going to whack a 1st level PC pretty quickly with that encounter.

Basic/Expert was a bit different. At that level, the fighter types had AC's of 3 or lower (plate and shield was certainly affordable by a 1st level character) and the baddies had a THAC0 of 20. 15% hit chance and only doing d4 damage generally meant that the 1st level party of six or seven PC's had a fairly decent chance here.

Heck, checking the module, there's a random encounter chance of 4-16 kobolds! Again, that's going to slaughter a 3e or 4e party.

So, how do you change the module to fit the system?
 

[MENTION=3400]billd91[/MENTION] - is Return to the Keep significantly different from the original? Because the original doesn't translate very well at all. The encounter numbers are all wrong. Heck, there is anencounter with 30 kobolds (room A6) for a 1st level adventure. That's a recipe for a lot of dead PC's in 3e. That's an EL 6 encounter. If there isn't at least one dead PC at the end of that, something's wrong.

It's a 50x40 room, so, at least space wise it'll work in 4e. Although, even if all 30 of the kobolds are minions, I'm still pretty sure I'm going to whack a 1st level PC pretty quickly with that encounter.

Basic/Expert was a bit different. At that level, the fighter types had AC's of 3 or lower (plate and shield was certainly affordable by a 1st level character) and the baddies had a THAC0 of 20. 15% hit chance and only doing d4 damage generally meant that the 1st level party of six or seven PC's had a fairly decent chance here.

Heck, checking the module, there's a random encounter chance of 4-16 kobolds! Again, that's going to slaughter a 3e or 4e party.

So, how do you change the module to fit the system?

Return is substantially different from the Keep. The idea is that it's 20-30 years later after the Caves of Chaos have been plundered before, so several things have changed. It was designed for 2nd edition, has a more detailed population for the keep, and substantial parts of the caves have changed. There 20 kobolds in the caves and some other areas that are fairly densely populated, but I don't have the numbers I used in my conversion at the moment. The hard drive with those files is currently inaccessible in a dead computer (thinking of removing it and putting it in an external enclosure to try to recover it).

I tried to keep the numbers as close to the original as possible for most encounters, at least. I was certainly able to do so for the Slavers series, keeping to the original levels as well, and did so with the giants but, because of giant upgrades in general, raised the expected level of the party.
 

Totally agree. "Never"? Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem going to see a movie without a friend on a different night. But, I have to admit, when we're all sitting around together in my living room, and someone says, "Hey, let's go see X", if someone said, "Nah, let's not", we wouldn't leave that person at home. We'd just find something else to do.

No disagreement with any of this. But when one player says "Let's skip the desert travel", we don't go back to it next week when that player stays home, we skip that desert travel entirely, right? Now, if that player says "I don't want to play Dark Sun", we might very well have a campaign to play Dark Sun without that player. Just another example of the difficulty getting a perfect analogy, really.

By and large? Nothing until the PC's do something. The PC's are pretty obviously not from the city, and are too small in numbers to constitute a serious threat, so, why would the besiegers even notice them?

If the PC's try to walk past the siege and enter the city, something will happen. If the PC's try to pass through the desert to get to the city, the nomads do something. The only difference I perceive in this regard is that the nomads will likely see the PC's first, while the PC's will likely see the encamped siege first.

Fair enough. So, now the siege is away from the city. Of course, since the blockade is too weak to actually have any direct effect on the city (after all, that's WHY they're not at the city), they are no longer of any real use to the PC's either.

The nomad blockade seems similar, to me, then the siege that cannot get past the walls, which you felt had a significant effect on the city. One example given was the likely lack of supplies, resources, etc. within the city, which is what the blockade will also cause.

Wow. Are really going to get that pedantic? Really? What do you hire when you want to go attack a castle? That's what I want to hire. Whatever you want to call them, that's fine. However, cutthroats and whatnot are generally not what I wanted to hire.

You want to hire a small armed group for a short period to go and kill a sentient being they have never met before and has done them no harm. Armies attacking other nations, cities, what have you, normally get fired up (rightly or wrongly) about "the enemy". What fires up your little commando team to view that Grell as "the enemy"?

How do these choices not have player buy in? They are both providing means to reaching the goal. Both have pros and cons. The players now have a choice to make. What's not bought in about this?

They are choices of obstacles to hurdle between us and the goal. "You must cross the desert to get to the city in the desert" seems perfectly reasonable to me - it is a necessay step to reach the city. Adding in "or you can play out service in the Pits of Gehenna to persuade a demon to teleport you there" doesn't seem to relate significantly more to the goal in the city. As well, having a map of the region, the players can choose to traverse the desert or not. That demonic bargain seems closer to a GM breadcrumb than player agency to me.

But we have to assume a lot about the scenario. Random transport to the middle of a wasteland seems very different from "players set goals which include obtaining something from the city in the desert". I'm not sure the players had anything to do with deciding they would go off plane to this location. A game made up of a steady diet of the PC's getting blasted from location to location by what (at least to them) seems nothing more than "mad wizards engulf you in chaos" would get pretty stale pretty fast. The players have less choice than if they are in some organization where their superiors assign tasks they must carry out. At least there, they make the choice of staying allied with that group or leaving. If leaving is a "they kill you in your sleep" event, we're back to "no meaningful choices". If the players made the choice to ally with the organization, now it's a consequence of their choice.

I am coming around, I think, to your note that, knowing little or nothing about our hypothetical group, specific examples are very difficult. When one of us provides an example, the other incorporates it in a backstory that modifies or even reverses its meaning. Is there a point to more examples?

Anything is better than just parachuting them into the desert cold without any buy in at all and then expecting them to interact with every carved stick the DM lays in their way until they finally stumble around long enough that the DM will let them get to their goal.

Here, I think, we're off the railroad and into the rowboat (Celebrim's term). The players lack any basis for choice. My answer in this instance would be, first, an evaluation of character resources. Do we have , say, divinations that could help point us in the right direction? If so, let's use them to gather what intel we can. Assume we don't. We are surrounded by wasteland in all directions. I'm unclear wether we even know what we're looking for, but if we do we don't know what direction it is in. Can we gather any more info? Could we use Flight to get a longer view and see something - anything - differentiated in the featureless wasteland? No. I'll suggest, as player and character, I'm getting frustrated here.

So, we have no good options, and no apparent means of locating any. In character, it's looking pretty hopeless. We can sit here and hope to be rescrue, or pick a random direction and hope to find something. Rescue seems unlikely - let's go. What resources do we have to move faster? If Centipede is one, let's use it. As a player, same two choices. Unlike the PC's, I trust to the GM having a plan beyond "now that they are in the wasteland, they will wander until they die". But I'm likely to say "well, with no intel on the best direction and no way to get any, pick a direction at random and let's go". That said, I think I'd (player or character) be looking to interact with anyone or anything that might communicate some intel to me. Wandering scorpions, no. Wandering nomas, yes!

Now, here I do find myself, at least in part, coming to your thinking. If this seems an unusual event for the GM in question, I am still prepared to roll with it. I might, depending on the history and my own mood at the time, complain about the situation and express my hope that the rest of the scenario is a bit more "players planning" and a lot less "mad wizard blasts you throughout the planes".* [see ASIDE below] If this is the first scenario with a new GM, I'd feel more nervous, and a steady diet of similar setups would likely mean it's time to find a new GM. So, put me in that context, and I might well get shirty with the GM too.

* [ASIDE] I am recalling a game where we did spend some time balsting from location to location to gather the pieces of some artifact. I guess by agreeing to be so linked, however, we at least chose to be blasted from location to location until we collected all the pieces.
 

@billd91 - is Return to the Keep significantly different from the original? Because the original doesn't translate very well at all. The encounter numbers are all wrong. Heck, there is anencounter with 30 kobolds (room A6) for a 1st level adventure. That's a recipe for a lot of dead PC's in 3e. That's an EL 6 encounter. If there isn't at least one dead PC at the end of that, something's wrong.

It's a 50x40 room, so, at least space wise it'll work in 4e. Although, even if all 30 of the kobolds are minions, I'm still pretty sure I'm going to whack a 1st level PC pretty quickly with that encounter.

I think it depends how much work you expect to need to change the scenario. I agree 2e to 3e made some major changes, and we'd have to sharply reduce the numbers to move between the two despite the mechanical similarity that we roll d20. I know when I first read 3e, I classified it as a new game more than a new edition, and that's part of the reason. You'd either have to downgrade the numbers along with upgrading the opposition, or ugrade the PC's to match the same number of upgraded opponents.
 

Really? And, that's an honest question. I've looked at AD&D modules, and when I try to convert them to 3e, they don't work at all. The numbers are completely wrong.

Honest answer: yes. I have no problem with "the numbers" - adjusting them is easy. But, when I convert across from 1e or 2e to 4e, I find the *function* of things change, and I find that to be problematic. Heck, the forced movement powers alone wreak havoc for adjusting older material, whose maps aren't designed with such stuff in mind. The very type of space 4e asks for is different than 1e and 2e.

Just shows how experiences vary.

They most certainly do, which was the point of mentioning it.

For me, there is almost no points of commonality mechanically between 2e and 3e. Whereas, I found 4e almost instantly recognizable as a d20 game based on 3e mechanics.

And, for me, 3e looks very much like 2e with some minor restructuring - classes, class abilities, spells, all work like I expect them to. But to jump to 4e, I have to wedge things into a whole new system of powers which looks, to me, nothing at all like the earlier editions.

Like I said, the big difference is in the AEDU structure, but, even that appears in 3e in core - lots of classes have abilities that work like this...

But most don't. And even the ones that do aren't, to my eye, structured at all similarly.

It seems to come down to what sections of patterns different people more naturally latch on to.
 

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