Pathfinder 1E Paladin Alignments - More than just LG?

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

After reading and talking to other forum goers in other forums, it reminded me of a talk I had with my table about Paladins.

As we all know there are a lot of different gods out there and with each god there are different tenets/codes/dogma that their followers adhere to, within their followers are different races who have different ideals/morals/ethics. Some are gods of vengeance, some of love, some of redemption, and some of knowledge. Every god has followers and every follower is a different person.

The reason I bring this up is to discuss a house-rule my table and I talked about when dealing with Paladins. We spoke of allowing Paladins to be of any "good" alignment not just Lawful Good, when following a good or neutral deity with good-leaning tendencies.

I think that it would open it up for much more diversity than the "Mr. Lawful Stupid" being the main paladin (the cookie-cutter a lot of people like to play) in any given adventure.

Let's face it: Paladins are mortal, they have their own idiosyncrasies, they aren't perfect, and they have flaws just like any other class or person. I've always felt that they were much too restrictive by most people's standards and that a lot of people (quite a few on some forums) believe that some small acts done (when presented with basically catch-22's) constitute the falling of said paladin if he "doesn't play his alignment" perfectly.

So my question to the rest of you is how would this effect the rest of the game if I had a Paladin of Cayden Cailean who was CG at the table?

His personality --> He'd be a happy guy, not so stuffy, he'd be a traveler who couldn't sit still, he'd love to drink, but he'd absolutely abhor slavery. One of his tenets would be to liberate slaves any time he had a chance.

Could your table abide having this kind of guy in the group who was a holy warrior?

Would this somehow unbalance the game or break it?

P.S. I did post this on another forum so that I could get additional feedback from more people.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

So my question to the rest of you is how would this effect the rest of the game if I had a Paladin of Cayden Cailean who was CG at the table?

Very little, and most changes would be positive.

His personality --> He'd be a happy guy, not so stuffy, he'd be a traveler who couldn't sit still, he'd love to drink, but he'd absolutely abhor slavery. One of his tenets would be to liberate slaves any time he had a chance.

Could your table abide having this kind of guy in the group who was a holy warrior?

Hell yes. The ability to work as a group - something paladins are very bad at - seems like no problem for this guy.

Would this somehow unbalance the game or break it?

Alignment and codes of conduct have nothing whatsoever to do with game balance.

 

[Tovec]

Honestly, I've never had a problem with the strong (LG, CG, LE, CE) alignment paladin variants of unearthed arcana. I can definitely see arguments for each, least the CE but even then I have seen it. A CG paladin who wants to liberate people and has that as his #1 concern, just as a LG would have justice (or w/e is appropriate) is fine to me. What I strongly dislike, however, is paladin of any alignment/of a god's ethos/any good.

Also, be aware that opening up a paladin to CG is still going to have the same problems as having a LG one. Especially if there is any kind of adherence to a code or possibility to fall. You could quite possibly end up with chaotic-good-stupid, or whatever the CG version of that paladin-stupid expression is. It is just as open to abuse.

So, yeah, paladin to me is NOT a holy warrior. He is the embodyment of an ideal. Clerics are holy warriors, fighters who serve gods are holy warriors. Paladins are something more. In my experience the strong ideals paladin variants from unearthed arcana do not unbalance things, but you have to be clear what kind of paladin they are so people know and understand and can anticipate what the hot-buttons are.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Thanks for the responses Psi!

I agree that the changes would be positive and I think it'd make playing with and playing a paladin more fun for everyone. Gone would be all those moral conundrums of what a LG Paladin is "supposed" to do in every situation where the fear of the player is that his Paladin falls for doing something that he thought was good in the moment.

I'd just make sure that either I or the person playing the paladin read up on their deity and all of their specific dogma/tenets/codes and use that as the basis for what the paladin should do in situations that arise.

It just makes me wonder why Paladins are still restricted per RAW as being LG, when we have good warriors who follow different gods and clerics of said gods going about their business without all of those restrictions placed upon Paladins because that is what we, as players/GM's, are used to.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Honestly, I've never had a problem with the strong (LG, CG, LE, CE) alignment paladin variants of unearthed arcana. I can definitely see arguments for each, least the CE but even then I have seen it. A CG paladin who wants to liberate people and has that as his #1 concern, just as a LG would have justice (or w/e is appropriate) is fine to me. What I strongly dislike, however, is paladin of any alignment/of a god's ethos/any good.

Also, be aware that opening up a paladin to CG is still going to have the same problems as having a LG one. Especially if there is any kind of adherence to a code or possibility to fall. You could quite possibly end up with chaotic-good-stupid, or whatever the CG version of that paladin-stupid expression is. It is just as open to abuse.

So, yeah, paladin to me is NOT a holy warrior. He is the embodyment of an ideal. Clerics are holy warriors, fighters who serve gods are holy warriors. Paladins are something more. In my experience the strong ideals paladin variants from unearthed arcana do not unbalance things, but you have to be clear what kind of paladin they are so people know and understand and can anticipate what the hot-buttons are.

Hmm I didn't realize that UA had those Paladin variants. That's good to know and I'll have to either look through my files to see if I have that book or try to buy it secondhand.

As far as falling/codes with a GC Paladin - I see it being a little easier to do especially if the player reads up on the gods/goddesses out there and learns as much about their domains as possible. Falling would be a bit harder to do unless it's done on purpose. CG wouldn't be as restricted as a LG to try to find the lawful way of dealing with things rather they'd follow along with what their faith and conscious dictate.

I totally agree that the kind of paladin needs to be crystal clear.

 

[delericho]

Balance wise, you're absolutely fine.

As a matter of taste, though, I hate the notion of non-LG Paladins. Simply put, remove the restriction and you kill the class. YMMV on that one, of course.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Balance wise, you're absolutely fine.

As a matter of taste, though, I hate the notion of non-LG Paladins. Simply put, remove the restriction and you kill the class. YMMV on that one, of course.

Thanks for the response.

I can see that, especially with old school gamers. We are so used to the iconic paladin who follows the letter of the law, that a non-LG Paladin could leave a bad taste in your mouth. I like to try to think outside the box with my groups and this is something that everyone can see as being possible if the Paladin adheres to his deity's teachings.

 

[N'raac]

As far as falling/codes with a GC Paladin - I see it being a little easier to do especially if the player reads up on the gods/goddesses out there and learns as much about their domains as possible. Falling would be a bit harder to do unless it's done on purpose. CG wouldn't be as restricted as a LG to try to find the lawful way of dealing with things rather they'd follow along with what their faith and conscious dictate.

I don't think "Chaotic" means "follows Law when it suits him". It means Chaotic. This person will not enforce the guidelines of law, structure and society on anyone. He will champion freedom and inividual rights over societal norms. He doesn't get to decide that some societal norms are and he does not get to enforce his expectations on others.

From the description of Law vs Chaos:

"Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them."

From the description of Chaotic Good:

"He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do."

"Deeply inherent in the chaotic good character's philosophy is the belief that most individuals are good and will do good if given the freedom to act as they please."

"They resent those who inflict their ideals on others, especially through intimidation, and are often reluctant to conform. Chaotic good characters want the freedom to do as they will and desire others to be free of oppression as well."

The Chaotic paladin should be expected to be JUST as Chaotic as any expectation of Lawful Paladins being Lawful. Imposing his will on others, or allowing anyone else to do so, should not be an acceptable course of action for a CG Paladin.

I probably lean to the old school vision of the LG Paladin, but I would suggest that any Paladin's actions be dictated by a moral code. "I do whatever I want" does not bespeak a Paladin to me, of any alignment. The Paladin nees to epitomize the code to which he adheres.

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

Yep, I agree with you N'raac. That's the reason I used a CG Paladin of Cayden Cailean. He'd be a pretty jovial fellow who's "hot button" issue is going to be slavery. He'll do whatever he can to free slaves, prevent slavery, and kill slavers.

I could also see a NG Paladin of Gozreh who acts kind of like a druid in regards to nature. He loves nature, animals, and plants. He goes after anyone trying to corrupt it.

It could just open up the whole class to me to a lot of different personalities for paladins and following deities they normally wouldn't even consider. It'd give me (as a GM) more to work with as well when considering plots and back-stories.

 

[gamerprinter]

The question I have, is how people are playing the edicts of cavaliers and samurai? Are they as restrictive on cavalier/samurai edicts, as they are with with a paladin's edicts? I imagine breaking a cavalier/samurai edict means losing access to order powers, challenge powers and resolve. Is it the same treatment as paladin or something different?