Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

[Balesir]

I dunno 'bout "better," but the old-school PS model was perfectly possible in 4e, if you were willing to whip up a lot of your own details for things and maybe overlook some of the core 4e assumptions (like what tieflings and eladrin were). You're exactly right in that the PS concept of "center of all" meant that any arrangement of reality is ultimately subjective. But 4e's other fiction changes could wreak some havoc.

I don't really see some name changes and cosmetic alterations to a race as serious impediments - they can be reversed easily enough without any systemic effects, if it's felt to be necessary.

As to the overall cosmic conflicts in 4E - I think they make more sense with the Planescape fiction, not less (though, note, that is just a persoanl view - I'm not claiming any absolute superiority here).

I just looked over the thread, and granted I understand if you and Balesir prefer the 4e mechanics but... maybe I'm missing something because I'm not seeing how 4e's World Axis does PS "better" than the Wheel... could you or [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] elaborate... or is this meant to be a subjective "better"?

The "better" I meant is purely a marginal thing, due to the fact that the World Axis has several of the Great Wheel "planes" as different "realms" or "domains" in the same plane of existence. This makes things like the rivers that flow through several "planes" and things like Yggdrasil marginally easier to visualise/justify. It's not really a big deal - quite evidently running Planescape is perfectly feasible (and better than feasible) in the old cosmology - but I think it brings marginal benefits due to the basic set-up being closer to what might be visualised if one thinks of "divine realms joined by rivers or trees".

I also think of the stories and art in the PS material of planeswalkers leaping from the "edge" of one plane onto another - a concept which really doesn't make much sense if the "realms" involved are not actually adjacent places on the same plane but separate planes of existence. This suggests "lore" to me whereby the fact that there are portals from one Astral Domain to another has misled some folk to interpret them as "separate planes" when in fact they are different "Domains" on the same plane - the Astral Sea.

No reason you can't come up with reasons why it still works as separate planes, though. The "edges" might actually be places where there are "crossings" where the "fabric" between the planes is weak so that "leaping", if you time it right, will cause you to switch planes. As I say, PS was designed for the Great Wheel, so it obviously will work with it perfectly well.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't really see some name changes and cosmetic alterations to a race as serious impediments - they can be reversed easily enough without any systemic effects, if it's felt to be necessary.

Quite true!

As to the overall cosmic conflicts in 4E - I think they make more sense with the Planescape fiction, not less (though, note, that is just a persoanl view - I'm not claiming any absolute superiority here).

Fair 'nuff. I know my short-lived PS4e campaign didn't suffer from the 4e versions of things.

 

[Piratecat]

I love Planescape lore. I adore it. It's hands down my favorite setting published by TSR or WotC.

That said, I've got Planescape. It's okay if new monsters don't cleave to it; frankly, they shouldn't. It'll be the role of a future Planar setting to make existing monsters cleave to IT.

 

[Aldarc]

There's a lot that I like and admire about Planescape, but I do not like the borderline religious devotion to the Great Wheel. I understand that the Great Wheel has a long tradition within D&D, but that does not mean that I have to like that tradition or should want to seek its continuance in order to be counted among as a "true D&D fan." I actually preferred 4E's cosmology, as it felt more fluid, organic, and mythical,* whereas the Great Wheel left me feeling as if it's more artificial, mechanical, and rigid. The Astral Sea vs. the Elemental Chaos struck me as being even better akin to the old school Law vs. Chaos dichotomy, with the Prime Plane being the Neutral. I'm sure the Great Wheel has it's place - certainly within the D&D tradition - but I am not a fan of having it be the default cosmology to which all worlds must adhere to and be connected with. (I'm also not a fan of 4E's cosmology doing the same in regards to other settings.)

* The fairy realm and the underworld were the two archetypical "other planes" found in many myths and folklore that the new cosmology captured quite well.

 

[GSHamster]

I adore Planescape, and I don't think D&D should "re-imagine" the iconic elements of that setting.

However, I don't see why a lot of the iconic PS stuff needs to be in the default game. When it comes to outsiders, all the default game really needs is angels, demons, and devils. The PS versions of those are perfectly viable for D&D in general.

The default game doesn't really need modrons, slaadi, yugoloths, or even tieflings. There's no need to change those monsters, but there's also no need to add them to the default game.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

No.

Elements of it are neat (Sigil, Infinite Staircase), but I prefer to be able to take or leave the rest at will.

 

[Orius]

Poll is too binary to really reflect my opinion on the matter (and I'm ignoring the Xaositect/slaadi answer of lemon curry).

I like Planescape, but it doesn't need to be shoehorned into everything generic either. The basic cosmology is classic AD&D and I'd prefer to see it kept as a default, while giving the DM the option to create a cosmology that suits the campaign world, basically the approach taken by the 3e MotP. Also some of the important planar monsters -- elementals, fiends, celestials that are actually relevant to a typical campaign should be in core and not contradict older material while not leaning on it heavily. The more unusual PS creatures really don't need to be in core, especially if they're not going to show up on the Material Plane very often.

Honestly, the planar material never should have been spun off into its own discreet setting, since the planes are a core element of the game. It was a case of 2e being far far too dependant on campaign worlds (Birthright is another similar case). But OTOH, PS is one of 2e's better settings, and it way of making the planes accessible to all levels of play rather than just high-level dungeons is one of its strengths.

 

[S'mon]

I don't care. If I GM Greyhawk I'll use the Great Wheel. But in general it seems very rigid and for my homebrew world Ea I preferred a Moorcock-based 'Million Spheres'. I was happy when the excellent 3e Manual of the Planes presented that as an option, breaking down the 1e-2e Great Wheel orthodoxy. I like most of the 4e World Axis, except Hell - I keep Hell as an infernal prison (adjacent to the Abyss), not a supernal star realm.

Re Planescape specifically, I quite liked Sigil's Factions and the idea that belief powered reality, with bits of Concordant Opposition (or whatever the 2e name was for the Neutral Plane) breaking off into other planes. Pretty stupid of 4e to get rid of the Factions, apart from them Sigil is pretty dull.

 

[Leatherhead]

I don't see the need for other settings to even use a cosmology. It's more or less just a waste of space for them to even include them, as you are lucky to get a few pages on the entire universe beyond the planet. Sure there are some random spell effects, but in my experience, keeping track of the phases of the moon and stars to see if your fireballs are powered up is just the kind of minutiae that bogs down a game rather than adding too it. Especially if you are using a pre-made setting to (ideally) cut down on the amount of setup work the DM needs to do.

If you are in the Realms, you are on Abeir-Toril.
If you are in Eberron, you are on, er, Eberron.
If you don't like the planes, you don't need to ever branch out beyond the planet, you have more than enough materials. And if you make your own planes, what difference is there?

 

[Balesir]

Re Planescape specifically, I quite liked Sigil's Factions and the idea that belief powered reality, with bits of Concordant Opposition (or whatever the 2e name was for the Neutral Plane) breaking off into other planes. Pretty stupid of 4e to get rid of the Factions, apart from them Sigil is pretty dull.

I thought it was 3.x that really did the hatchet job on the factions. Granted, the old 2e versions had grown a bit stodgy, but I thought the 3e version just chopped stuff out without really adding anything. 4e then added nothing again, but just grudgingly gave minimal shape to a scant few favoured factions, so neither 3e nor 4e are due any honour for it, IMO.