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Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

Do You Care about Planescape Lore?


I dont mind the original treatments of the Great Wheel by Gary in the Dragon, and PHB. Planescape was a neat alternative, but I hate that it has become largely canon and all settings trying to shoehorn it in, to a lessor or greater degree. The planes are one of those things that I wish D&D writers would ignore and leave up to DMs.

One of my fave things about 4e was the treatment of the planes and cosmology. Familiar, but fresh, easy to what you want without 30 years of baggage.
I love the Planescape lore and wouldn't want to see it die, but it does bemuse me somewhat that folks tie it to the Great Wheel cosmology - my overall view is that PS could be done as well, if not better, with the World Axis setup as with the Wheel.

PS often made a thing about how the "clueless" didn't understand the meaning of the word "infinite"; I would add that they seem to have had trouble with the concept of a "plane of existence", too. For a start, the planes don't have a physical layout. That is a concept that just doesn't work with the idea of a "plane". The planes coexist in the same space - that's what a plane is. The idea that one plane can be "above" another just doesn't compute.

It's a bit like White Wolf's excellent Mage concept of the "Correspondance Point"; there really is no such thing as physical space - your location in it is actually meaningless. Space and three dimensions is just a belief system formed by your mind to organise things such that you can understand and relate to them. The planes are similar. To say that you "journey" to Celestia doesn't make sense - you are already there, along with every other plane of existence. It's just that you can't perceive it, even though it's all around you. And it can't perceive you. Shift your focus of physical being and your perceptions, and you're there - there is no "journey".

So, the planes are defined by the "portals" and the "pathways" that allow that perception and focus of physical being to be shifted from one to another. Add appropriate portals to the World Axis - and, since several of the old "planes" are actually on the same "plane" that is now actually easier and things like "jumping from one plane to another" make much more sense - and you have the "Great Wheel" as a perfectly plausible belief system in the 4E cosmology. Ask the question "what determines the "layout" of a cosmology and you'll see that it's far more about belief than any really identifiable "facts" in any case.

The only chasme in the ointment is the Ethereal plane. That really is the only thing that was taken out with 4E that makes the slightest real difference - and that because it's a "parallel plane" (as if they all aren't!) that is (in translation) easy to coexist in - i.e. easy to keep your perception and locus of physical presence split between it and the prime material plane. Stretch the Elemental Chaos into a misty "border region" - or add an "Ethereal layer/demiplane" that is "parallel" to both the material plane and the Elemental Chaos - and you should have everything you need.

So, for me, there doesn't need to be a "core cosmology". Just explain that actually you can just list the planes, then define which ones are "parallel" to each other and decide which ones have the most portals between them. The rest of the "layout of the planes" stuff is just down to belief and dogma. There is no real "physical layout", because the relations are not physical. Deal.
 
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This...

Planescape (and the Great Wheel Cosmology) for me harken back to the strangeness of a certain subset of sword and sorcery along the lines of Moorcock and (to a lesser extent) Lieber as well as weird fanatsy like that written by China Mieville.

Don't forget Poul Anderson.
 

Planescape Torment got played for about twenty minutes then chucked in the bin. I hated Planescape that much.
Many, many people loved Planescape: Torment.

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Balesir said:
I love the Planescape lore and wouldn't want to see it die, but it does bemuse me somewhat that folks tie it to the Great Wheel cosmology - my overall view is that PS could be done as well, if not better, with the World Axis setup as with the Wheel.

I dunno 'bout "better," but the old-school PS model was perfectly possible in 4e, if you were willing to whip up a lot of your own details for things and maybe overlook some of the core 4e assumptions (like what tieflings and eladrin were). You're exactly right in that the PS concept of "center of all" meant that any arrangement of reality is ultimately subjective. But 4e's other fiction changes could wreak some havoc.
 

Hey, I don't. I couldn't stand Planescape back in the 90's, ignored it entirely. Thought it was completely ridiculous and a waste of space. Planescape Torment got played for about twenty minutes then chucked in the bin. I hated Planescape that much.

So, here we are, decades after the fact, still having this stuff rammed into 5e. Does anyone really care? Or is it simply pandering to a very vocal, but very small number of Planescape fans?
I'm confused, because I think you're including a lot under the 'Planescape' umbrella that really isn't. Are you referring to the Great Wheel cosmology, Sigil, the factions, or what?

That said, I don't care what happens in 5e because I won't be buying 5e. Also, fluff is easy to change. *shrug*
 


QFT. And as it happens, I am doing just that. :)

I just looked over the thread, and granted I understand if you and Balesir prefer the 4e mechanics but... maybe I'm missing something because I'm not seeing how 4e's World Axis does PS "better" than the Wheel... could you or [MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION] elaborate... or is this meant to be a subjective "better"?
 

I just looked over the thread, and granted I understand if you and Balesir prefer the 4e mechanics but... maybe I'm missing something because I'm not seeing how 4e's World Axis does PS "better" than the Wheel... could you or @Balesir elaborate... or is this meant to be a subjective "better"?
Oh I'm sure there are arguments to be made, but for me it's a subjective thing. I don't have any particular disdain for the Great Wheel, but its faux-symmetrical themes rub me the wrong way.

As much as I'm adapting PS to 4e, I'm also adapting it to my own personal tastes. For example, I've axed five factions that I just don't think have the emotional or philosophical appeal to survive in Sigil over the long term. I've also tweaked two other factions, and added an entirely new one. Factions don't have anything to do with cosmology or edition -- they're a matter of taste.
 
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Oh I'm sure there are arguments to be made, but for me it's a subjective thing. I don't have any particular disdain for the Great Wheel, but its faux-symmetrical themes rub me the wrong way.

As much as I'm adapting PS to 4e, I'm also adapting it to my own personal tastes. For example, I've axed five factions that I just don't think have the emotional or philosophical appeal to survive in Sigil over the long term. I've also tweaked two other factions, and added an entirely new one. Factions don't have anything to do with cosmology or edition -- they're a matter of taste.

Cool, I can't do anything but respect that you're making it your own.
 


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