D&D 5E [Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?

[Obryn]

Healing all at once instead of distributed over time.

Which, if you have it, means HP cannot be meat*, because people don't heal wounds all at once, they heal wounds over time.

Unless ***MAGIC!*** of course. Because if a group of gamers sitting around in a basement can't imagine someone doing it in real life, it has to be ***MAGIC!***

-O

 

[I'm A Banana]

Unless ***MAGIC!*** of course. Because if a group of gamers sitting around in a basement can't imagine someone doing it in real life, it has to be ***MAGIC!***

-O

Well, yeah, magic is required to accomplish the unbelievable, and knitting wounds instantly is pretty unbelievable, so if healing HP means repairing fleshy body damage, magic is required to do that with a single word in the thick of battle -- that's pretty unbelievable!

Though I don't know that what we can or can't imagine factors into it. If you can imagine someone spontaneously healing a wound in real life, I suppose you could use inspirational healing with meat HP, but you could also perhaps use whatever spontaneously heals wounds in real life the next time you break an ankle.

 

[Obryn]

Well, yeah, magic is required to accomplish the unbelievable, and knitting wounds instantly is pretty unbelievable, so if healing HP means repairing fleshy body damage, magic is required to do that with a single word in the thick of battle -- that's pretty unbelievable!

Though I don't know that what we can or can't imagine factors into it. If you can imagine someone spontaneously healing a wound in real life, I suppose you could use inspirational healing with meat HP, but you could also perhaps use whatever spontaneously heals wounds in real life the next time you break an ankle.

Well, if D&D combat and recovery involved lasting and serious injuries like broken bones, severed limbs, deep puncture wounds, and infection, you'd have a point.

As it stands, unless you're dead, the worst thing a sword or dragon bite or hundred foot fall can do to you can be healed up with a few days at an inn. So swords, spears, tall cliffs, and inns must be ***MAGIC*** too!

-O

 

[Ahnehnois]

Well, yeah, magic is required to accomplish the unbelievable, and knitting wounds instantly is pretty unbelievable, so if healing HP means repairing fleshy body damage, magic is required to do that with a single word in the thick of battle -- that's pretty unbelievable!

While I agree with this, I think it's important to note that even to the extent (however you play it) that hit points are not meat, psychological trauma and fatigue do not disappear instantaneously either. Luck is more of an unknown commodity, but most of the conceptual space that hit points cover involves things that don't disappear in six seconds because someone shouts at you.

 

[Hussar]

Healing all at once instead of distributed over time.

Which, if you have it, means HP cannot be meat, because people don't heal wounds all at once, they heal wounds over time.

Yeah, I gotta go with Obryn on this one.

In 3e D&D, any amount of wounding, to -9 HP, can be healed naturally in 8 days. ((Bedrest is levelx4 HP/day)) Your character can be burned to -9 HP and completely recovered in just a bit over a week at the maximum. The idea, at least in D20 D&D, that HP=Meat is ludicrous on its face. It's a farce that keeps getting the drum beat because it sounds good.

Earlier D&D? Maybe a bit more. But, even then, you're looking at about a month to heal any wound. 2nd edition had you healing 21 HP/week+Con for bedrest. That's more than likely to heal any level character in a couple of weeks no matter how wounded.

Again, you could be burned to -9 HP and be fully recovered in a couple of weeks.

How is HP=Meat possibly justified? I've never, ever understood how this works. It's been over twenty years now that HP=Meat hasn't been true in the rules. Not even remotely true. Yet, people keep insisting on it. Where is the evidence?

 

[Manbearcat]

***MAGIC!***

-O

If the 5e devs incorporates Keywords into its stat blocks at some point, they need to take advantage of the genius of this rainbow-hued, CAPS, manic stars, and !!!! iteration. Its magically delicious imo.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, if D&D combat and recovery involved lasting and serious injuries like broken bones, severed limbs, deep puncture wounds, and infection, you'd have a point.

Well, since HP sans magic in every edition aside from 4e only return at a very slow rate naturally, it's certainly possible that they represent broken bones, severed limbs, deep puncture wounds, and infections, all abstracted out. And because the heroes are big dang heroes, they fight at full effectiveness through all the scars and scabs and limps because they're big dang heroes and not 4 hp turnip farmers. They've got grit and determination and gumption and whatnot, so we don't need mechanics to model fiddly bits like reduced movement from a sprained ankle, and we don't need a "realistic" convalescence, and we don't really need anything more detailed than "you're down a few HP's" to model the bodily wear and tear from getting bruised and beaten and bashed and cut and broken.

In other words, HP can be mostly meat without special rules that say they are. HP can be meat or mostly meat and every single thing about the game functions just peachy, with the exception of a thing that didn't exist in the game until 2008 and doesn't HAVE to exist in any one game.

As it stands, unless you're dead, the worst thing a sword or dragon bite or hundred foot fall can do to you can be healed up with a few days at an inn. So swords, spears, tall cliffs, and inns must be ***MAGIC*** too!

Yeah, if you're trying to prove to me that HP can't be meat, you're barking up the wrong tree -- as much as you'd be if you were trying to persuade pemerton that HP can't be luck, I'm thinkin'. It's a preference, nothing more.

Which is why a modular rule there is a smart way to cut the Gordian knot. 5e doesn't need to be a game without metafictional HP, but it also doesn't need to be a game that assumes metafictional HP. Add in non-magical spike healing via a no-magic module, and a heroic fast-healing module, and a gritty+ rules module, and everybody's good.

Again, you could be burned to -9 HP and be fully recovered in a couple of weeks.

How is HP=Meat possibly justified?

How is a CON of 20 possibly justified? Or an INT of 18? Or the great big flying dragon that just incinerated the township? Or, hell, inspirational healing?

It's all just different points on the willing-suspension-of-disbelief-o-meter.

I like gradual HP attrition and PC's getting battle damage as their HP drops lower, and injuries that still hurt the next day, which works well with HP-as-meat, and which HP-as-not-meat doesn't sit with quite as easily (fast healing is not a good survival mindset!). Healing in a few weeks and not suffering penalties until you drop don't bother me in the slightest, because I like tough characters who can endure a good butt-kicking. It doesn't mean my games are badwrongfun, it just means I've got a particular style and tendency at the moment.

Now if everyone's done telling me that I can't possibly have fun playing the game how I like to play it....?

 

[Warbringer]

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]

Well it seems that in 5th hit points are essentially a meat-o-meter; or at least the "starting point" is:

"Hit points represent an element of physical wear that involves a combination of fatigue and physical injury. As you take more damage, you have more evident wounds."
Mearls, Hit My Points

 

[Obryn]

Well, since HP sans magic in every edition aside from 4e only return at a very slow rate naturally, it's certainly possible that they represent broken bones, severed limbs, deep puncture wounds, and infections, all abstracted out. And because the heroes are big dang heroes, they fight at full effectiveness through all the scars and scabs and limps because they're big dang heroes and not 4 hp turnip farmers. They've got grit and determination and gumption and whatnot, so we don't need mechanics to model fiddly bits like reduced movement from a sprained ankle, and we don't need a "realistic" convalescence, and we don't really need anything more detailed than "you're down a few HP's" to model the bodily wear and tear from getting bruised and beaten and bashed and cut and broken.

So to be sure I'm getting this right ... ignoring broken bones, third degree burns, dislocated joints, and outright hits to a potentially unarmored person with swords and axes = okay because "big damn heroes." Restoring hit points from these clearly non-critical injuries quickly without ***MAGIC!*** = Right out! Got it. Shine on.

In other words, HP can be mostly meat without special rules that say they are. HP can be meat or mostly meat and every single thing about the game functions just peachy, with the exception of a thing that didn't exist in the game until 2008 and doesn't HAVE to exist in any one game.

Yeah, if you're trying to prove to me that HP can't be meat, you're barking up the wrong tree -- as much as you'd be if you were trying to persuade pemerton that HP can't be luck, I'm thinkin'. It's a preference, nothing more. [/quote]
Any argument about hit points which hinges on any kind of realism issue is, in my book, dead from the start.

Which is why a modular rule there is a smart way to cut the Gordian knot. 5e doesn't need to be a game without metafictional HP, but it also doesn't need to be a game that assumes metafictional HP. Add in non-magical spike healing via a no-magic module, and a heroic fast-healing module, and a gritty+ rules module, and everybody's good.

Sure! Add in an optional class which makes it its shtick and everyone's happy!

-O

 

[Savage Wombat]

I had assumed that the relevant point of "spike" healing was not that it was healing over time, but healing during combat. The Wand of CLW is a good example of healing that really only takes place outside of combat, when turns are no longer a factor, but isn't the same as rest healing.