D&D 5E [Warlords] Should D&D be tied to D&D Worlds?

[Hussar]

Well, since HP sans magic in every edition aside from 4e only return at a very slow rate naturally, it's certainly possible that they represent broken bones, severed limbs, deep puncture wounds, and infections, all abstracted out./snip

But, this is not true. Unless you honestly believe that 8 days is slow. Or, even in Basic/Expert, you got 1-3 HP/day of rest - so, a month at the absolute outside of rest restores all damage.

I don't know about you, but a broken bone healing completely in a month? That's meant to be believable, but, abstracted? Really?

To me, this whole, HP=Meat argument again, has always relied on a very loose reading of what the rules actually said, in any edition. It's never been supported by the mechanics. Not in any edition.

If people want it added in, as a module, sure, knock yourself out. But, let's be honest here. HP=Meat is not the baseline of any edition of D&D and never has been. HP have never returned at a slow rate. Healing has always been much, much faster than it should be if believability is the issue.

What boggles my mind is that in years of 3e, no one ever bitched about the fact that your character can heal, naturally, from -9 HP to full in about 3 days (which is typical), but, reduce that to one day? Oh hell no. That's not believable. And then add on this rewriting of history to say that HP has always recovered slowly?

Outside of OD&D, whose rules I honestly don't know, in what edition of D&D would it ever take longer than a month to fully recover from wounds naturally? And, again, let's be honest, how often did that ever happen in game? Very, very rarely. You'd rest maybe two or three days and the cleric would heal you. Same as every other edition of D&D.

The only difference is that 4e isn't coy about it.

4e might be faster, as a baseline, but, HP recovery in D&D has never been slow.

 

[Ahnehnois]

How is HP=Meat possibly justified?

Simple. Posit the following: "meat" (i.e. a physical body that can be physically damaged) exists. What D&D mechanic describes it, other than hp?

Ability damage only exists in 3e AFAIK, and doesn't come about as the result of combat very often. There's really nothing else that represents it. So, by process of elimination, if you make the assertion that characters live in a reality where physical wounds exist, are caused by weapons, and can kill you (not exactly hardcore sim assumptions), hp is what describes them.

Is it a great model? No. But it's what we've got.

 

[Dragoslav]

While I agree with this, I think it's important to note that even to the extent (however you play it) that hit points are not meat, psychological trauma and fatigue do not disappear instantaneously either. Luck is more of an unknown commodity, but most of the conceptual space that hit points cover involves things that don't disappear in six seconds because someone shouts at you.

They don't disappear in six seconds because someone shouts at you, but instead someone shouts a reminder that you are a "big dang hero" and you decide to suck it up and stop being a pansy until the battle is over and you can take a rest to cry about all of the horrible, nightmarish things you just experienced.

Sure! Add in an optional class which makes it its shtick and everyone's happy!

+1. Unity edition, and all that.

 

[Obryn]

Simple. Posit the following: "meat" (i.e. a physical body that can be physically damaged) exists. What D&D mechanic describes it, other than hp?

Faulty logic. Not everything needs to be modeled by a game system.

It's like saying, "What other D&D mechanic models emotional distress?" Or "What other D&D mechanic models grain value fluctuations during a drought?"

-O

 

[Ahnehnois]

They don't disappear in six seconds because someone shouts at you, but instead someone shouts a reminder that you are a "big dang hero" and you decide to suck it up and stop being a pansy until the battle is over and you can take a rest to cry about all of the horrible, nightmarish things you just experienced.

Wow. Um, I know it's just a game and all, but wow. Not even touching that one.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Faulty logic. Not everything needs to be modeled by a game system.

Again, that's why it has to be postulated. Logic is built on what follows from unprovable basic assertions. You have to start somewhere.

However, in a game that involves creating a fictional world and characters, has hundreds of pages of rules, and an explicit focus on combat, the idea that wounds are worth representing somewhere in the rules is not exactly a radical one.

The contrary that you're implying, the idea that wounds are not relevant or don't exist in the game world is probably one that is held by some people. Not the kind of game I want to run though.

 

[Gadget]

Well, since HP sans magic in every edition aside from 4e only return at a very slow rate naturally, it's certainly possible that they represent broken bones, severed limbs, deep puncture wounds, and infections, all abstracted out. And because the heroes are big dang heroes, they fight at full effectiveness through all the scars and scabs and limps because they're big dang heroes and not 4 hp turnip farmers. They've got grit and determination and gumption and whatnot, so we don't need mechanics to model fiddly bits like reduced movement from a sprained ankle, and we don't need a "realistic" convalescence, and we don't really need anything more detailed than "you're down a few HP's" to model the bodily wear and tear from getting bruised and beaten and bashed and cut and broken.

In other words, HP can be mostly meat without special rules that say they are. HP can be meat or mostly meat and every single thing about the game functions just peachy, with the exception of a thing that didn't exist in the game until 2008 and doesn't HAVE to exist in any one game.

So let me get this strait, you can potentially double the amount of 'meat' you have by going from level 1 to 2, or level 2 to 4 (etc.) because characters are "Big Dang Heroes", but being inspired to carry on by a Warlord interferes with the 'willing suspension of disbelief'? Sounds like the selective suspension of disbelief to me, but Okay.

And by the way, don't we have quotes from both the AD&D 1e and 2e explaining that Hit Points are not mostly 'just meat'. The "hit points are not mostly meat" concept was hardly a something that was introduced to the game in 2008.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Sounds like the selective suspension of disbelief to me, but Okay.

It is. As with many things in life, the reason we use hit points is not because they're good, or even because they are what we think they are or want them to be. We use them because they're the status quo, and because they're simple.

Frankly, I think most people want more from their rpg than hit points can give them (regardless of their gaming style), but change is hard.

 

[Ratskinner]

How is HP=Meat possibly justified? I've never, ever understood how this works. It's been over twenty years now that HP=Meat hasn't been true in the rules. Not even remotely true. Yet, people keep insisting on it. Where is the evidence?

Its not evidenciary, AFAICT, its all in interpretation, on both sides.

So, there's that old Gygax quote about how ridiculous it is to assume that a 100 hp dude has 10 times the "meat" of a 10 hp dude. The thing is...he doesn't actually (and I don't think anyone ever did) describe how to specifically interpret the rest of it. The "HP=meat" crowd seem to believe that each and every single HP contains an admixture of meat + moxie (with the meat portion decreasing as you level up), whereas the other crowd proposes that individual HP are either (a) one or the other or (b) "abstract", as if that's somehow an answer.

To me, it seems that each crowd has points in its favor and against it (further evidence, to my eyes, that HP are a generally poor mechanic). Mostly these points have to do with interactions with other rules (poison, healing, etc.), rather than anything inherent in HP as a mechanic itself. Neither interpretation seems to solve the "Schrodinger's Wounds" problem or the way traditional healing magic seems to be named in reverse order of typical application.

 

[Dragoslav]

Wow. Um, I know it's just a game and all, but wow. Not even touching that one.

I'm glad I could make your life momentarily more interesting.