Converting monsters from Second Edition Monstrous Compendiums

[Cleon]

Good grief, we forgot about these again. No time at just the moment, but I'm giving them a quick bump so we remember to finish them up...

Oh I knew we still had these to finish, but I don't think we're in a hurry.

Besides, it's not like it's me who's updating the Undead Dragon Slayer working draft, so this thread is covered by a Someone Else's Problem field.

What do we have left to do with them apart from the "Must... Kill... Dragons..." special quality?

Just the background text and a sample creature, by the looks of it.

 

[Cleon]

If an undead dragon slayer kills a number of Hit Dice of dragons equal to its own total Hit Dice in a week, it removes one positive level. If a slayer currently has no positive levels, it gains 5 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points cannot exceed the slayer's full normal hit point total, and it gradually loses them at the rate of 1 hit point per day.

Now I think my intention was to allow an Undead Slayer to double its normal hit points by adding temp hit points, but I didn't express that very well.

Rather than max current hit points = max normal hit points + temporary hit points (max temp = max normal), it reads like it's max current hit points = max normal hit points, so it can only gain temporary hit points if it's wounded.

Better rephrase that.

 

[Cleon]

Better rephrase that.

Upon reflection, I'm not in favor of the whole positive level approach. They're just such a nuisance to keep track of. How about using a HP penalty?

What thinks thee of this:

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Dice the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer immediately suffers a 5 point penalty to its hit points, plus an additional 5 point penalty for every day the slayer endures without "feeding". This hit point penalty continues to mount until the undead dragon slayer is destroyed or it kills a dragon.

Hit point penalties from Draconic Slaughter can only be removed by the undead dragon slayer kills more Hit Dice worth of dragons than the undead dragon slayer's character level over a 24 hour period. For every Hit Dice of dragons that exceeds the undead dragon slayer's character level, the Draconic Slaughter penalty is reduced by 5 hit points. If this would be more than the penalty, the slayer gains the excess as temporary hit points, up to a maximum of 5 temporary hit points per character level the slayer possesses.

 

[freyar]

Hmmm.

While a slayer does not eat, it must slay dragons to replenish the energy that keeps him animated. Killing a dragon provides an undead dragon slayer with enough energy to last one month for every Hit Die the dragon had. If it does not replenish its energy within one week of the moment its last meal fades, it loses strength and must return to the sleep of the dead.

Not a whole lot of guidance.

I'm not fond of the HP penalty much or particularly of the temporary hp (in fact, the original critter seems not to gain a benefit from eating, merely staving off it's demise). There's not a standard mechanic for it, it feels just as difficult to track as a positive level in some ways, and it doesn't make apparent that the undead dragon slayer is losing strength. I would go with the following:

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Dice the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer immediately gains a positive level, plus an additional positive level for every day/week?? the slayer endures without "feeding". The positive levels continue to mount until the undead dragon slayer is destroyed or it kills a dragon.

Positive levels from Draconic Slaughter can only be removed by the undead dragon slayer killing more Hit Dice worth of dragons than the undead dragon slayer's character level over a 24 hour period. For every Hit Die of dragons that exceeds the undead dragon slayer's character level, the Draconic Slaughter penalty is reduced by one positive level.

 

[Cleon]

Hmmm.

Not a whole lot of guidance.

I'm not fond of the HP penalty much or particularly of the temporary hp (in fact, the original critter seems not to gain a benefit from eating, merely staving off it's demise). There's not a standard mechanic for it, it feels just as difficult to track as a positive level in some ways, and it doesn't make apparent that the undead dragon slayer is losing strength. I would go with the following:

I don't mind dropping the temp hit points bit, but I strongly dislike the positive levels - it's both fiddly and introduces a "death spiral" that makes it a lot harder for a failing Slayer to replenish its unlife-force.

How about if we keep the HP loss but drop the temp hp?

I'm also thinking it's better to lower the restore HP cost and drop the 24 hours bit:

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Dice the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer immediately loses 5 hit points, plus an additional 5 point penalty for every day the slayer endures without "feeding". This hit point loss continues to mount until the undead dragon slayer is destroyed or it kills a dragon.

Hit points lost due to Draconic Slaughter can only be restored by the undead dragon slayer killing dragons, at a rate of 5 lost hit points per Hit Dice of dragon. Any excess Hit Dice of slain dragon become sustenance for the undead dragon slayer at the normal rate (one week per Hit Dice).

 

[freyar]

I just don't like direct hp penalties. I believe intelligent undead heal when resting from my reading of the SRD, so you have to make an exception for that, etc, etc. If you really can't stand positive levels, how about a Cha penalty, with them destroyed when Cha gets to zero?

 

[Cleon]

I just don't like direct hp penalties. I believe intelligent undead heal when resting from my reading of the SRD, so you have to make an exception for that, etc, etc. If you really can't stand positive levels, how about a Cha penalty, with them destroyed when Cha gets to zero?

Yes, under RAW intelligent undead have "natural" healing as fast as living creatures.

As for the "you have to make an exception for that, etc, etc", that's all covered in the SQ description I offered.

A Charisma penalty introduces some of the "fiddly recalculations" I don't like about the positive level approach, since a lot of the Slayer's abilities have Cha-based DCs.

It also still mean the Slayer is still losing hit points, since it has Unholy Toughness.

So, since neither of us appear to like the other's current proposals, how about we try something different.

The original entry doesn't describe the slayer "wilting away" once it runs out of dragon HD life energy, so how about we use one of the following:

a) It is immediately destroyed if it runs out of Dragon HD, no save.

b) It is destroyed 24 hours (or some other number) after it runs out of Dragon HD.

b) when it runs out of Dragon HD it must immediately save (Will DC 20?) or be destroyed, and if it succeeds it must keep on saving every 24 hours at a +1 DC each time until it feeds or misses a save and is destroyed.

I'm liking the latter two as it offers more drama as the Slayer searches for a dragon to kill with increasing desperation. Of them, c) is my favorite as it's (more complicated ) similar to how a creature dying from lack of air works, which is also a sort of "running out of life" situation.

 

[freyar]

Amazing to see you complain about fiddly bits!

I like the last option, as well. Here's a draft:

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Die the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer must make a Will save (DC X), or be immediately destroyed. If it succeeds, the save must be repeated each day until the undead dragon slayer kills a dragon, with the DC increasing by +1 for each successful save.

 

[Cleon]

Amazing to see you complain about fiddly bits!

The stuff I like aren't fiddly bits, but beautiful complexities!

I like the last option, as well. Here's a draft:

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Die the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer must make a Will save (DC X), or be immediately destroyed. If it succeeds, the save must be repeated each day until the undead dragon slayer kills a dragon, with the DC increasing by +1 for each successful save.

I'd tweak the second paragraph slightly as follows.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer must succeed at a DC X Will save or be immediately destroyed. The save must be repeated each day, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success, until the undead dragon slayer kills a dragon or is destroyed.

 

[freyar]

In that case, all we need is a DC before I can update the draft. What do you think? Start at DC 20?

Draconic Slaughter (Su): Undead dragon slayers must kill dragons to maintain their existence. Slaying a dragon will sustain an undead dragon slayer for one week per Hit Die the dragon possesses. This duration stacks, up to a maximum of one year per character level the undead dragon slayer possesses. To "feed" off a dragon's dying life force, an undead dragon slayer must strike a dragon with an attack in the same round as the dragon dies. If multiple undead dragon slayers all strike the dragon in the same round it dies, the duration of Draconic Slaughter is shared between them.

If the duration of draconic slaughter run out, the undead dragon slayer must succeed at a DC X Will save or be immediately destroyed. The save must be repeated each day, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success, until the undead dragon slayer kills a dragon or is destroyed.