I don't understand how the PF structure you describe here - "Fey plane and Shadow plane as opposite mirror-doppels of the Material Plane, bright and dark mirrors" - is at all different from the 4e approach. Given that my phrase in quotes is the 4e approach.
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D&D 5E L&L 1/7/2013 The Many Worlds of D&D
- Thread starter Blackwarder
- Start date
I don't think either of you do, on this subject.
Orius
Legend
Presumably, the gatetowns are there to help facilitate low-level play in the setting. As for what's beyond, I suspect that's supposed to be intentionally vague so DMs can do whatever the hell they want to do. The way I conceptualize things, the further out you go from the gatetowns, the further away you go from the reality of the Outer Plane themselves and eventually you cross over into the Far Realm.
The Outlands got a kind of half-assed partial coverage between the PS boxed set and that booklet and CD. Sigil itself got ample coverage in the setting box, In the Cage, the Factol's Manifesto, and Uncaged: Faces of Sigil.
I'm kind of thinking now...and this really has no baring on the discussion of organization of the planes [so those that will can skip it]...but it just occurred to me, I would like/think it might be cool if, for the Faerie and Shadow planes at least (whether they keep to this "getting closer to the Energy planes" story element or not), going there actually changes your character to "fit/match" the plane.
That is, human characters become elvin/sidhe versions of themselves. Dwarves, maybe, stay the same or take on a slightly trollish or goblinoid look. Halflings turn into Brownies. Elves and half-elves, no doubt, look the same or perhaps a bit more regally "elfy" than usual.
As the blaring yellow light from the dimensional portal evaporates before your eyes, you find yourselves standing amidst a group of faye beings. From the muscular bulk, the reddish hair and braids, and traditional family battle axe in his hands, you can tell the broad shouldered elf before you is your barbarian warrior friend, Grod. But he has pointy elf ears, almond shaped elf eyes and finer facial features, his normally scarred leather armor and pelts have been refined with elegance and clean white ermine pelts! You turn to a brownie standing at your knees tugging on his new russet and brown leathers. The swarthy complexion looks up at you and from behind the now long pointed nose stare the unmistaken brown does eyes of youru halfling companion, Gilbo. "What's happened to us?!" Your druidess, Galinda, as you can tell from her face and the spear she carries, looks around and down at the gown and cloak of leaves that now surround her dryad-like golden skin and spring green hair, says, "I think we've made it to the Land of Faerie."
Let them keep their armor and weapons, skills/knowledge and the like don't change, magic doesn't have to change or perhaps takes on a slightly more faye/shadowy form or slant when cast. Maybe give them a temporary enhancement to their Cha. and/or Dex. Maybe some minor natural ability to match their new form.
Same on the shadow plane, turning darker, wispy, goblinish, shadow-spectre-ish...all of your adornments, skin, hair taking on shades of grey and black...
...and maybe the longer you stay on the plane, the more like your transformed form you become. Beginning to take on more of a faye or shade attitude, until you forget you were ever from the Material in the first place. Hopefully the PCs notice and realize they can't stay there indefinitely...or do they now feel they want to?
Makes for a cooler visual, I think and gives a bit of added "other worldliness" to planar travel. ...questionable whether I would do this on the elemental planes, but being infused with the [positive/negative] energies seems totally plausible to me.
That is, human characters become elvin/sidhe versions of themselves. Dwarves, maybe, stay the same or take on a slightly trollish or goblinoid look. Halflings turn into Brownies. Elves and half-elves, no doubt, look the same or perhaps a bit more regally "elfy" than usual.
As the blaring yellow light from the dimensional portal evaporates before your eyes, you find yourselves standing amidst a group of faye beings. From the muscular bulk, the reddish hair and braids, and traditional family battle axe in his hands, you can tell the broad shouldered elf before you is your barbarian warrior friend, Grod. But he has pointy elf ears, almond shaped elf eyes and finer facial features, his normally scarred leather armor and pelts have been refined with elegance and clean white ermine pelts! You turn to a brownie standing at your knees tugging on his new russet and brown leathers. The swarthy complexion looks up at you and from behind the now long pointed nose stare the unmistaken brown does eyes of youru halfling companion, Gilbo. "What's happened to us?!" Your druidess, Galinda, as you can tell from her face and the spear she carries, looks around and down at the gown and cloak of leaves that now surround her dryad-like golden skin and spring green hair, says, "I think we've made it to the Land of Faerie."
Let them keep their armor and weapons, skills/knowledge and the like don't change, magic doesn't have to change or perhaps takes on a slightly more faye/shadowy form or slant when cast. Maybe give them a temporary enhancement to their Cha. and/or Dex. Maybe some minor natural ability to match their new form.
Same on the shadow plane, turning darker, wispy, goblinish, shadow-spectre-ish...all of your adornments, skin, hair taking on shades of grey and black...
...and maybe the longer you stay on the plane, the more like your transformed form you become. Beginning to take on more of a faye or shade attitude, until you forget you were ever from the Material in the first place. Hopefully the PCs notice and realize they can't stay there indefinitely...or do they now feel they want to?
Makes for a cooler visual, I think and gives a bit of added "other worldliness" to planar travel. ...questionable whether I would do this on the elemental planes, but being infused with the [positive/negative] energies seems totally plausible to me.
Shemeska
Adventurer
The PF Shadow Plane is essentially the same as the 2e/3e Shadow Plane, a dark mirror of the Material plane, while the 4e Shadowfell is an amalgamation of Shadow, the Negative Energy Plane, Ravenloft, and elements of the Greek Underworld. I find them quite difference in terms of what they're there to represent and the implementation thereof.
As far as the PF First World and the 4e Feywild, the difference in approach is much more subtle. Largely it's that the Feywild hijacked the 2e/3e eladrin and made them fey, whereas PF retains an eladrin analog as CG outsiders, and the First World is a touch closer in places to a Machen-esque take on the realm of the Fey. I don't see the 'The White People' or 'Great God Pan' influence in the 4e Feywild that I see present in the PF First World. The atmosphere is a bit different and the influences that went into making each likewise IMO, but they do try to represent something similar. There isn't the gulf here that I find in the Shadow Plane verus the Shadowfell. YMMV.
Klaus
First Post
The Negative Plane/Ravenloft/Greek angle of the Shadowfell is only as prevalent as the DM wants to make them. Bottom line, the Shadowfell *is* a dark mirror of the material plane, where things look decayed/twisted in relation to the Material counterparts, and where the very essence of the plane instills a dreadful malaise upon the soul.
The Feywild borrows a lot from Irish legend (Tuathans, fomorians, Wild Hunt, firbolgs, Vor Thomil), with a lot of storybook sensibilities thrown in. I'd put Arthur Rackham and Charles Vess up there among the heaviest influencers (for me, personally).
The Feywild borrows a lot from Irish legend (Tuathans, fomorians, Wild Hunt, firbolgs, Vor Thomil), with a lot of storybook sensibilities thrown in. I'd put Arthur Rackham and Charles Vess up there among the heaviest influencers (for me, personally).
Shemeska
Adventurer
But that's the thing: that's not in any way like the classic D&D Shadow Plane, and largely why the Shadowful didn't do much for me. I'd much prefer something like the approach that we see more in PF or pre-4e D&D. Warped yes, decayed and instilling a dreadful malaise upon the soul no.
The Feywild borrows a lot from Irish legend (Tuathans, fomorians, Wild Hunt, firbolgs, Vor Thomil), with a lot of storybook sensibilities thrown in. I'd put Arthur Rackham and Charles Vess up there among the heaviest influencers (for me, personally).[/QUOTE]
Klaus
First Post
Decayed is just another aspect of twisted: buildings are crumbling, trees are contorted, etc. And pre-4e D&D's Plane of Shadow was pretty much a blank slate: it got about a paragraph in the 1e Manual of the Planes, and was only tangentially mentioned in entries such as that of the shadow dragon or some other energy-draining creature, such as the nightwing.
The Plane of Shadow is a transitive plane. (can even breach cosmologies).
That's a 3E-ism as far as I know.
In the AD&D DDG the Plane of Shadow was a shadow of the Prime Material Plane, cast by the interaction of Positive and Negative Material Planes with the Prime.
In the AD&D MoP the Plane of Shadow had become a demiplane.
I don't know about 2nd ed AD&D/Planescape, but I don't think it really had the idea of "breaching cosmologies", did it?
