D&D 5E L&L 1/7/2013 The Many Worlds of D&D

[Ratskinner]

I think it's deeper than that. I notice you ignore Basic/Expert which did, very much, have a default setting. 1e was more than just some bits like assassins guilds and druid circles. <snip>

OD&D, I honestly don't know, so I cannot comment. But, AFAIK, every D&D version, save 2e, was pretty strongly tied to a default setting.

IDK that I'd call something like "Dwarves and Elves have issues" or "There are Rangers and Druids" a "default setting". On the other hand, I agree that most previous editions failed to make a clear distinction between setting and general rules. (Which I view as problematic.)

 

[Ratskinner]

Isn't the big issue here not that there is a "default" cosmology per second (in other words, one cosmology that gets defined/described in the first DMG) but rather the idea that every campaign setting they create will use this first one?

While that is certainly an issue, I'm not sure it would be the big issue.

Seems to me, if WotC was to just say that the adjusted Wheel will be described in the DMG to be available for new and unconcerned players, but that individual settings will describe their own (and players who make their own settings can rearrange to their hearts content), that solves the problem?

Because let's be honest, I suspect not enough players care or use the planes to warrant giving over large chunks of the DMG to illustrating MANY different options. That's a poor use of word count for that book. And besides, do experienced players that create their own settings (with their own cosmologies) really need it explicitly spelled out that they can repurpose the info in the DMG for their own uses? Hasn't that always been a given? We don't need to treat these players like they're stupid and can't figure it out.

I think the problem creeps in with things like monster descriptions, some spell descriptions, etc. So that when you want to utilize these elements, you end up referencing material that may be explicitly not part of your game-world. (That is, the problem comes from having a default world/cosmology more than presenting it.) I agree that generating a cosmology is really not that problematic, but extracting a built-in default/presumed one is. I would also fully support a MotP that covered the material in depth (although it would be better as a product more like Chessboards from WotC's defunct The Primal Order line.

 

[gyor]

http://thurberhouse.org/the-sundering-re-imagining-the-forgotten-realms-of-dungeons-dragons.html

I believe this is the sundering info mike was talking about fyi.

I noticed near the bottom underneath Ed's bio, it meantions videoes. I wonder if it meaning youtube or movies of some sort?

 

[Hutchimus Prime]

I hope there's supposed to be more of an announcement than that.

 

[Echohawk]

Well, Ravenloft's Forbidden Lore had the domain of Kalidnay, and it came out the same year as the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook (1992), so I wonder which released first - of course, if you accept the idea that Ravenloft can reach alternate material planes, then it might be a moot point.

Both The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook and Forbidden Lore were published in October 1992. Technically, the CSHB has a copyright registration date three days earlier than FL (Oct. 23 vs Oct. 26), but they both shipped and went on sale in the same month. Probably not a co-incidence then that both products reposition Athas slightly in the multiverse.

 

[Alzrius]

Both The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook and Forbidden Lore were published in October 1992. Technically, the CSHB has a copyright registration date three days earlier than FL (Oct. 23 vs Oct. 26), but they both shipped and went on sale in the same month. Probably not a co-incidence then that both products reposition Athas slightly in the multiverse.

Very impressive detective work, Echohawk! I agree that that particular bit of coordination is probably not an accident.

 

[Warbringer]

cup, storm ..

 

[Shemeska]

I took a week to think about this before responding, though more so that I've been on vacation in New Orleans for that time than any particular reaction to this all.

Overall, it's a start. As far as the outer planes go, I'm totally on board with the approach that they describe. The Inner Planes are a bit more of a mixed bag however, and there's a bit too much 4e influence still lingering around for my personal taste. I understand that they want to create some sort of compromise version to bridge the almost irreconcilable gulf between the 1e/2e/3e planes and the 4e cosmos, but I worry that the more 4e terms and influence that is merged into a more heavily classic D&D Great Wheel is going to please neither Great Wheel fans or 4e fans. It's a tricky thing. But it can work if you're subtle about it. We shall see, and I'll be paying attention as it develops certainly.

Problems that I see however:

Ravenloft as a border plane between the Material and Negative Energy? What the...? That's just... I don't even... They really need to leave Ravenloft as a demiplane and not try to overly define what it is, which is what an overt linkage to Negative Energy is going to do. Use the classic Plane of Shadow, drop any pretense of the clumsy Shadow/Negative Energy/Ravenloft/Fugue Plane/Greek Underworld amalgamation that the 4e Shadowfell was, and return to a more classic plane of Shadow.

Likewise I find it somewhat unwise to use the 4e Feywild as a border plane between the Material Plane and the Positive Energy Plane.

Ideally I'd keep a 5e Fey plane and Shadow Plane as divorced from the Energy Planes, and functioning more as opposite mirror-dopples of the Material Plane, linked to it, rather than anything else. Bright and dark mirrors if you will. That's also how Pathfinder handles its own First World and Shadow Plane, and I like that as it works better with more classic D&D attempts at the same concepts than either the 4e or 5e models IMO.

Finally: Where is the Ethereal? Unless I completely missed it, where's the misty plane of raw potential, dreams, and demiplanes?

 

[zoroaster100]

I'm generally o.k. with this, though I hate the Blood War and find it boring. As long as they don't play up the Blood War too much in describing the Outer Planes, I'd be o.k. with this.

 

[Orius]

Doesn't bother me, since I generally like the Great Wheel to begin with, and use it with a few additions. It's the familiar D&D cosmology that been around since 1e, with a few extra details here and there. Only don't really care for the whole approach with the Shadowfell and Feywild bits. I'd rather a classic plane of shadow, and I generally view a fey plane as a connection between the Material and Outer planes.

As for connecting the other worlds together: The Great Wheel is likely the original cosmology behind Greyhawk, so I can't understand the arguments against putting it there. Similarly, it was long the cosmology behing FR as well. Mystara being more or less vanilla like the other two settings would probably use it too, but I'm not familiar with the setting's planar setups from B/X, BECMI, and RC (anything AD&D likely would have retconned it into 2e assumptions, so I'm not counting that material). That leaves the other worlds.

Dragonlance kind of fits poorly into the planar structure, so it should probably have a custom cosmology, no matter how much both Spelljammer and Planescape tried to shoehorn it in. Dark Sun, Spelljammer, and Ravenloft (with the exception of Ravenloft's initial 1e modules) were all first published as full setting at around the same time, the early 90's, and my guess is that they were all written to be in the Great Wheel. Planescape is just an expansion of the Great Wheel cosmology, so of course it should use it. Then there's Birthright which again was assumed to be Great Wheel (certainly Planescape made a few references to the setting which said as such), but any 5e reimagining doesn't really need to use the great Wheel, I don't think the planes were important to that setting. Eberron has its own assumptions, so should have its own csmolog. Don't really care about Nentir Vale myself, but it should probably stick with a cosmology closer to 4e.

Mearls should take the 3e MotP as a guideline here. Have the Great Wheel as the default D&D cosmology, but give the DM flexibility to make whatever arrangement he wants.