D&D 5E L&L 1/7/2013 The Many Worlds of D&D

[Dausuul]

No argument here. But they've said there is/will be a default...so there it is. To argue they shouldn't have one when they've already said they will is...well...pointless.

Because the designers never listen to fan feedback and never change their minds about anything?

As far as the idea of a "default" cosmology goes, it's certainly not a dealbreaker for me; it's just a sad. I would prefer a loosely coupled design in which each plane and its denizens form a self-contained module, and relationships between the planes are not assumed. So devil lore would refer to the Nine Hells, but not to the Blood War. Astral projection sends you to the Astral Plane, but doesn't specify what the Astral Plane connects to. Then there would be a separate chapter presenting some example cosmologies, like Great Wheel or World Axis, where inter-planar elements would go.

This way, it's easy to pick the lore you want and discard the lore you don't want, and you don't have to constantly explain to your players which bits do and don't apply. Having a "default" means the designers are given free rein to tightly link the lore of the various planes; so if you use devils and the Nine Hells, any player familiar with the devil lore is now going to assume there's a Blood War on, and you'll have to disabuse the player of that notion.

 

[I'm A Banana]

a default cosmology is not going to somehow RUIN your conceptions of your own

Nah, but it'll wrek Eberron's conception of its own, and Dark Sun's conceptions of its own, and Spelljammer's conceptions of its own, and potential future settings' conceptions of their own.

And it'll artificially limit what planes can be added or subtracted from 5e's cosmology by the designers ("Sorry, fans of the eastern element concept, there's no room for an elemental plane of wood or metal.")

And it'll weaken the potential aid they could give any DM who wanted to make their own (one appendix saying "make stuff up" with some broad guidelines vs. an encyclopedia of potential realities, each one created or selected by a DM empowered to define the worlds of their own table).

But they've said there is/will be a default...so there it is. To argue they shouldn't have one when they've already said they will is...well...pointless.

They've also said that in this playtest, everything is up for re-interpretation. If they see enough people who would rather have a planar toolkit than one cosmology to rule them all, maybe they'll make the toolkit central and relegate the "example" cosmology to the Appendix (or even realize that they don't need this particular cosmology, since they already have at least three that work well as examples).

 

[Weather Report]

Defilers & Preservers stipulated that someone trying to reach the planes through the Grey had a 33% chance of reaching the Inner Planes, or a 5% chance of reaching the Outer Planes (or vice versa, for someone coming from the planes to Athas) - low chances, to be sure, but not inconceivable.

Likewise, the Planar Gate that Dregoth used (found in City by the Silt Sea and then again in Psionic Artifacts of Athas) allowed for faultless planar travel to and from Athas. And that's not even getting into the Black Spine adventure, which was about a githyanki invasion of Athas (which is somewhat reminiscent of the "Incursion" mini-campaign that would appear in Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron in 2003).

I won't even get into the various small instances of Dark Sun material that was to be found in the products for other campaign settings (e.g. an Athasian life-shaped artifact in Tcian Sumere - the fortress of Tenebrous (that is, Orcus) on the Negative Energy Plane in Dead Gods).

Yep, originally (in the hardcover Dragon Kings) Dark Sun was in an Alternate Material Plane, but shared the Astral, Inner and Outer planes with the Prime (though the Earth, Air, Fire and Water accessory hinted Athas might have its own elemental planes, Silt, etc).

Later, they reconciled it with Ravenloft/Spelljammer/Planescape, starting with the Spacefarer's Handbook (the black, perfect bound softcover), it mentions Athas being in a closed crystal sphere.

Thanks for the other juicy nuggets, Alzrius, but I have a question on The Grey, if you can reach the Inner and Outer planes throught it, what of the Ethereal and Astral, how do they all connect?

And The Black is just a pocket dimension unique to Athas, right?

 

[Ratskinner]

First, the idea of the game needing a "default setting" is suspect. These books are supposed to be instruction manuals for D&D, and if they are that, then part of how you play D&D is by creating your own setting. The instruction manuals should be showing you how to do that. There doesn't need to be a default. There should be example settings, but examples are different from defaults because there is no assumption that you will be using the example. The Great Wheel is a good example. Is is not a good assumption.

I second KM's post and just wanted to highlight this part as being the most important to me. I haven't seen any evidence that the existence of a "default" setting helps the game in any way. (There are games where it does, but I don't think D&D is one of them.) I also think that linking all the worlds in some grand D&D metaverse isn't really that great a thing (either for Planescape or Spelljammer).

Why are some people assuming thier won't be tools for creating your own cosmology\setting?

I don't think anybody is assuming that, but...

The default is just an example and so they have something basic to design extraplanar monsters, spells, and the like around.

This is exactly the problem with a default cosmology. So now, if I want to run a game with a different/unique cosmology, I have to go back and rework all the monsters, spells, and the like. Why? What is gained? Why not just have nameless/formless references in the monster descriptions? "Servants of a dark power" works just as well as "Servants of Asmodeus", "from a distant plane" is just the same as "from the Astral plane". At least, in the core (i.e. generic) rules. Put whatever you want in the settings.

Even beyond the mechanics themselves, you have the problem of player/DM expectation. New players show up and simply assume that they can, should, or must utilize the default cosmology. The more any default cosmology is written into the rules, the more profound this problem is.

A tool box approach to setting/cosmology design will likely be in the DMG. So people should stop reading to much into this.

"We gave you a way to fix it" doesn't exactly excuse "We gave you a problem in the first place".

 

[Alzrius]

Yep, originally (in the hardcover Dragon Kings) Dark Sun was in an Alternate Material Plane, but shared the Astral, Inner and Outer planes with the Prime (though the Earth, Air, Fire and Water accessory hinted Athas might have its own elemental planes, Silt, etc).

Well, Defilers & Preservers retconned the "alternate Material Plane" thing, and I think that it was the Planewalker's Handbook that not only explicitly mentioned Athas as being on the Prime Material Plane, but also mentioned that they had "odd" names for the Paraelemental Planes.

Later, they reconciled it with Ravenloft/Spelljammer/Planescape, starting with the Spacefarer's Handbook (the black, perfect bound softcover), it mentions Athas being in a closed crystal sphere.

Well, Ravenloft's Forbidden Lore had the domain of Kalidnay, and it came out the same year as the Complete Spacefarer's Handbook (1992), so I wonder which released first - of course, if you accept the idea that Ravenloft can reach alternate material planes, then it might be a moot point.

Thanks for the other juicy nuggets, Alzrius, but I have a question on The Grey, if you can reach the Inner and Outer planes throught it, what of the Ethereal and Astral, how do they all connect?

The Grey replaces the Border Ethereal inside of Athas's crystal sphere. If you manage to penetrate it, then you head either to the Deep Ethereal and then on to the Inner Planes, or through the Astral and on to the Outer Planes, depending on which way you were trying to go.

And The Black is just a pocket dimension unique to Athas, right?

Presumably so.

 

[Weather Report]

The Grey replaces the Border Ethereal inside of Athas's crystal sphere. If you manage to penetrate it, then you head either to the Deep Ethereal and then on to the Inner Planes, or through the Astral and on to the Outer Planes, depending on which way you were trying to go.

Bingo, that's the info I was after, thanks, homes.

 

[Hutchimus Prime]

Still waiting on The Sundering info....man, chomping at the bit all day for it...

 

[Hussar]

On the topic of a default setting:

Well, for one, you've certainly got tradition in there. Other than 2e, every edition of D&D has had a default setting. D&D has always had one, so, for 5e not to have one would be a bit odd considering their stated design goals.

Secondly, a default setting dramatically lowers the bar for new entry into the game. If you have to build a world before you can play D&D, you've just turned off a whole lot of new players who simply don't have the time/energy/inclination to world build. There really are players out there who just want to sit down and play.

D&D should not come with a "Some assembly required" tag. You should be able to open the books, read the books and start playing. You should not have to invest dozens of hours developing a world before you can start play. Having a default setting gives you enough of a framework that you can jump right in.

And, considering the amount of love that D&D lore gets, I'm not sure how you can argue that there should be no default setting. After all, without a default setting, many of the creatures in D&D are left pretty much out in the cold. What's a slaad (not to dredge up that can of worms) without Limbo or any connection to the outer planes? What's a modron? What's any outer planar creature without some sort of default cosmology? Heck, without a default setting, what's an elf? or a dwarf? Or some of the less mythical style creatures like orc or dragonborn?

Sure, you can pass it off onto the DM and just tell him to build his own. But, again, that's dumping a heck of a lot of work onto the DM with the assumption that any DM who wants to DM also wants to world build.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, for one, you've certainly got tradition in there. Other than 2e, every edition of D&D has had a default setting.

I don't think that's very true. While 4e did and 3e did, 2e sort of did (The Prime Material world your games existed in wasn't very strictly defined, but it was clearly part of the greater planar structure), 1e only kind of did (if you consider things like assassin's guilds and druid circles to be world-specific), and OD&D pretty much purely didn't (the original boxed set references setting games on Mars/Barsoom and keeps monsters and PC's very generic, mechanically). And 3e's touch was light -- there were some Greyhawk proper nouns, but nothing very funcitonally "Greyhawk," and 3e was the only e so far to include alternate cosmologies and planar structures.

So it's a muddier history than that.

Secondly, a default setting dramatically lowers the bar for new entry into the game. If you have to build a world before you can play D&D, you've just turned off a whole lot of new players who simply don't have the time/energy/inclination to world build. There really are players out there who just want to sit down and play.

And why can't those players be served by a fleshed out example?

The distinction between an example and a default is kind of subtle, but pretty important. One shows you how to do it (and can even be usable out of the box), the other carries with it the assumption that this will be used automatically.

What's a slaad (not to dredge up that can of worms) without Limbo or any connection to the outer planes? What's a modron? What's any outer planar creature without some sort of default cosmology? Heck, without a default setting, what's an elf? or a dwarf? Or some of the less mythical style creatures like orc or dragonborn?

They're all great examples of particular kinds of races or creatures a DM can opt to include in her game. They don't need to be assumed to all exist and be the same everywhere. The story of the slaad is one possible story of this one possible creature in this one possible reality, not a necessary bit of fiction for every D&D game. It's a good story, and it should be presented with respect for its good elements, so it doesn't need to be changed, but presenting the whole story as an assumption rather than and option or example is a problem. The core rules should really, I think, recognize that the function of lore and cosmology and setting stuff is to make the DM's job easier. Examples and options do that. Assumptions a defaults do not do that as well.

Maybe the distinction I'm making can be a bit unclear, so let me give an example.

At one end of the continuum, you've got 4e's monsters-on-a-business-card: raw stats, no context, roll your own, pure math. If that's all the game gives you, it's not great, since they're leaving a lot on the DM's shoulders.

At the other end of the continuum, you've got, say, 2e's Time of Troubles, and the expectation that all DMs everywhere must follow this proscribed canon. If the game wants you to adhere to a canon, that's not great, since they're speaking for what should be open to each table.

What might be better is that, say, WotC presents the Time of Troubles as an example of a world-shaking apocalypse that can happen in your games. It's there and it's fleshed out and it's something you can easily do and it might even be something that WotC tries to persuade everyone is the hottest thing since azers. You make it easy for people to use the material, but you don't assume that the material is going to be used by everyone.

It's not that D&D should have no setting. It's that D&D should have examples of myriad different kinds of settings, and not assume the use of any one as a default. No default, lots of examples. Like the monster manual: full of lots of monsters, but not assuming the use of any particular monster. Here's orcs. Here's hobgoblins. Here's gnolls. Use one, use none, use two, make your orcs hyena-loving or whatever.

Cosmologies should be the same way. Here's Eberron's Orrey. Here's Greyhawk's Great Wheel. Here's Spelljammer's Crystal Spheres. Use one, use none, use two, put your crystal spheres in the great wheel or whatever.

 

[Dire Bare]

WotC is kinda screwed with world design no matter what they do. 4th Edition was a departure from the gold old standard Great Wheel so now we have two default cosmologies with fans. WotC sticks with 4E cosmology, people get angry. WotC returns to the Great Wheel, people get angry. It's no surprise Mearls is trying to blend the two together.

However, I agree with many in the thread, that what's been disclosed so far doesn't sound very good and makes me unhappy. I'd personally rather they return largely to the Great Wheel with some tiny tweaks to retain some of the cool innovation of 4E, just not the mix we've been given so far.

One thing I liked about Planescape was the impossibility of some of it. For example, each elemental plane was infinite, yet had borders with the other elemental planes. Why not say that each elemental plane is infinite, has borders, AND floats in the Elemental Chaos? Don't bother trying to define these regions "geographically" (cosmographically?), just let the impossible exist without worrying too much about it.

WotC should definitely keep the Feywild and Shadowfell as important mirror planes (but maybe just call them Faerie and Shadow), two of the coolest developments of the 4E cosmology! Positive and Negative Energy planes? I find them kinda stupid, but why not have them be the "backdrop" to the mirror planes, I can just ignore them.