Legends & Lore: A Bit More on Feats

[Majoru Oakheart]

I'm firstly pleased that they realised the trouble with giving only +1 to an ability - the +2 or +1/+1 is definitely better. Having said that, I now fear that ability scores already start much, much too high. If you use the standard array with a 15, and get race and classes bonuses to it, then take your first feat, you're already at 19. Not much further you can go with that. I would suggest that it would be a good time to get rid of the class bonus, and maybe even racial bonuses, provided they can differentiate them sufficiently with other features.

Yeah, here's my thoughts:

This should go either one of two ways: stats should be valuable and almost impossible to come across(never going up) OR they shouldn't be very valuable and are easy to come across.

The problem is that the current version appears to give stats that are nearly the most important part of the character and you get to the maximum very easily.

Though, I understand why they did it. The problem with a stat that gives +5 to hit and damage is that anyone who DOESN'T have an 18 or 20 in whatever stat they use to attack is severely disadvantaged. So they have to nearly guarantee that all characters will have 20s in their prime stat by the time high levels come along. Or that the tradeoff they get for NOT having a 20 in their prime stat is equally powerful.

I still maintain that the easiest way to fix this would be to either make stat modifiers smaller(no bigger than +3 at 20) or make stats no longer give bonuses to hit or damage.

 

[Balesir]

I don't like "Power Attack" style abilities. They make only limited sense within the fiction - given that the action economy and attack roll is all abstract anyway, any successful hit can be narrated as a wild, powerful blow; and any miss can be narrated as a wild swing that went ride. And worse, they are maths traps: the point of the ability is to increase your PC's DPR, but whether or not they actually do that is highly sensitive to your initial chance to hit (as determined by your attack bonus and the AC you are aiming for).

Agreed; when we were playing 3.5 the standard situation was for those with Power Attack to have a table (either appended to or printed on the back of their character sheet) generated with a spreadsheet to identify the AC and situation (Full Attack or otherwise) against precisely what level of Power Attack was optimal. Did wonders for immersion...

 

[pemerton]

Agreed; when we were playing 3.5 the standard situation was for those with Power Attack to have a table (either appended to or printed on the back of their character sheet) generated with a spreadsheet to identify the AC and situation (Full Attack or otherwise) against precisely what level of Power Attack was optimal. Did wonders for immersion...

I had a Rolemaster player who had graphs plotted to show him how to optimally allocate his combat bonus to initiative, attack and defence in various situations. I've heard of similar things for Power Attack.

 

[MarkB]

And for DDN you'd have to factor Advantage / Disadvantage into those calculations too.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Agreed; when we were playing 3.5 the standard situation was for those with Power Attack to have a table (either appended to or printed on the back of their character sheet) generated with a spreadsheet to identify the AC and situation (Full Attack or otherwise) against precisely what level of Power Attack was optimal. Did wonders for immersion...

Then why did you allow it?

You can't blame the game for breaking your immersion when its the players themselves who are doing the breaking.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Then why did you allow it?

...

Maybe he was just a player and couldn't decide what the group saw as "ok"?

I think his point is that they should avoid creating feats where the optimal usage includes precalculated tables. 4e has actually done quite a lot to reduce the math needed to play your character. In my opinion, it does a much better job at it than 3e. Now the only trouble I have at my table is players that have problems adding their dice together and remembering what their to-hit bonus is.

Slightly off-topic: in our 4e game we have a Swordmage who has the Dual Strike power which lets him attack one foe, teleport and then attack another foe. It's really iconic, useful and there is no math added (no +1 to hit, +4 damage type of bonus). It's an ideal type of power from 4e that they should make into a feat in 5e.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think his point is that they should avoid creating feats where the optimal usage includes precalculated tables.

I do not know if what you say is Balesir's reasoning or not (and I leave it to him to clarify if it isn't)... but in response to what you say here, I do not think they should be limiting their rules design just to ones that aren't going to inspire people to "play optimally", because every rule inspires 99% of players to "play optimally". That's what people do. That's why you put your highest stat in your primary ability score... to "play optimally".

I think it's unnecesary to ask WotC not to include rules in their game that won't inspire players to "play optimally", because you then end up with no rules. And if the real problem is a player using an outside chart to help him do it... then make him memorize the table so it becomes an instinctual part of his "optimal play", just like it is for all the other rules in the game for the rest of us.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Damage reduction is really valuable and shouldn't just be handed out. Especially if it's not a flat number. (Just listen to complaints about the Swarm Druid.) I think you could start with a DR 3/- or even 4/- with that heavy armor feat. Low-level monsters will be as nothing.

Agreed; when we were playing 3.5 the standard situation was for those with Power Attack to have a table (either appended to or printed on the back of their character sheet) generated with a spreadsheet to identify the AC and situation (Full Attack or otherwise) against precisely what level of Power Attack was optimal. Did wonders for immersion...

The paladin player in our now-finished Kingmaker campaign had a complicated Excel chart for determining paladin attack bonuses and damage ... when charging (he had Spirited Charge), using Smite Evil, using Power Attack, and certain buffs. I don't think it handled crit when charging very well, but otherwise it "did wonders for immersion".

One reason I like Pathfinder/4e-style Power Attack is it's binary. There's no huge penalty to hit, and players don't furrow their brows while trying to squeeze every last benefit out of it.

This "Power Attack" feat doesn't match either mechanically (too complicated) or thematically (it should at least be renamed "Wild Swing" as there's nothing implying mastery in this technique).

 

[dmccoy1693]

You know, I like these. If I am feeling old school, I forgo feats and just take the ability bumps. If I am wanting a customized character, I take a feat. And the feats seem about right for an ability bump level of power. Perhaps some tweeking is required, but it seems right.

 

[Blackbrrd]

[MENTION=7006]DEFCON 1[/MENTION] My point was that they should try to avoid adding math-heavy feats and instead add feats that let you do unique things, like a "dual lightning strike"-feat as detailed in my point. In other words, I think there are plenty of ways of creating feats that doesn't impact the calculating the to-hit or damage rolls, which again avoids the problem of creating power attack tables (on paper or in your own memory) to play "optimally".

I do actually find it fun to "optimized" stuff like power attack, but I have noticed it slows down play and makes certain players skip that option because they don't want the hazzle with the mechanical aspects of it, even if it fits their character concept beautifully.

As a design philosophy, I think it would be optimal for there to be no dynamic +x/-x modifers to the attack roll, leaving us with attack roll + precalculated modifer vs defense, and just using the advantage/disadvantage mechanic of 5e for cover, surprise and other such "larger occations". How nice wouldn't it be if you could write "+5 to hit" on your character sheet and be done with it?