D&D 5E Final playtest packet due in mid September.

[Cybit]

Name me one rpg that doesn't have any errors.

We're dealing only in shades of gray here; "better" or "worse". There's never going to be an rpg that doesn't require revisions.

True - but when you factor in that PF has the benefit of using a system that's been errata'd on a system level scale twice already (3.5 / PF original release), I don't really consider PF as any worse errata wise as 4E. (I say this as someone who played both 4E and PF since release).

That said, several of my friends up here were original 4E testers, and based on playing RPGs with them, I like them very much and all, but they are not the people you'd ask to test a game for mechanics issues. >_< People would be surprised how much playtesting is basically employees of the company asking their friends and their friends' friends to test out stuff. From my observations, WotC has been much better in 5E (so far at least) about that; they have reached out to many freelancers from around the country to test in their areas as well.

 

[Cybit]

That's slightly different. Every time they do a new print run of their hardcover books they incorporate the errata, so you don't need to consult a separate document. (And if you have a PDF of the Core Rulebook it's updated as well.)
But the vast majority tends to be actual errata, small typos and sentence errors that slipped through. And it's 9 pages compared to the 27 pages of the 4e PHB alone.

Pathfinder's also a very different case as it's a revision of a revision. There should be fewer obvious errors and the fact they F'ed up a few things (stealth) is egg on their face.

Errata happens. If 5e comes out and after four years it has nine pages of errata and fixes I'll be okay. If after that same time it has 34 pages.... that's a little frustrating.

Actually, Grapple is the one that comes to mind; as well as Gunslinger & Magus. Oy. Gunslinger makes me think someone did not pay attention to how ACs work at high level.

 

[Jester David]

A) As someone who is more..privy to how the internal testing is going -- it's well over 1000 people currently testing the game at its' latest packet. Most employees are being given carte blanche to invite their friends, friends friends, friends friends friends, etc, as well as many RPG designers & freelancers.

Okay, 1000 people. Out of curiosity, let's do some math.
Let's assume even numbers for groups and a good 1:4 ratio for DMs to players that's 800 players and 200 DMs.
For a GenCon release they need to have everything sent to the printers by mid-February. If they're testing as they're writing that means they have six months of actual playtesting to get the math fix and look for imbalance. Or 24 weeks. The holidays will devastate testing so really 22 weeks. There'll be some groups that play weekly and some that play monthly, averaging out to 11 weeks of testing. We'll also take off a week for final revisions.

There are 9 classes but some are more complex and some are less, so for the sake of easy math we'll reduce the number of classes to 8, leaving 100 people per class. This is further reduced due to different builds. Like 25 per individual build.
With 10 weeks of testing those 25 people need to completely test two levels of their build each and every week.

So that means any particular level or class feature was tested by twenty-five people for half a game session.

B) Dude, this is a playtest. As someone who has played in well over a dozen MMO playtests and multiple closed RPG playtests, including ones by very large competitors of WotC who shall remain nameless, this is exactly the same thing they gave us. I have ran these for an RPG company, this is how you playtest an RPG.

I've seen a lot of MMO playtests and few completely rebuild classes with every iteration.
That's concept testing. Which is fair. I'm very, very happy WotC did decided to concept test, and did it for a year. But it's not playtesting, which involves balancing and fine tuning. The stuff WotC is keeping private.

D) Wait till you guys see the next packet -- if it is what I think it is, you may be surprised at how much gets put into it.

Good point. Maybe the next packet will be much closer to done and will have some content that needs testing. So everyone can take a look and then send in feedback of what needs work. WotC might be about to school me with an awesome package that we can playtest.

 

[Cybit]

I'd put the number of closed playtesters closer to 10000, not 1000.

For a GenCon release, I think they will need to send to printers by April -- at least if they are using the same printers they have been recently.

Honestly, the lack of bonuses will also hopefully reduce the room for bugs significantly.

I can comment more on this when I talk to some folks.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

There are 9 classes but some are more complex and some are less, so for the sake of easy math we'll reduce the number of classes to 8, leaving 100 people per class. This is further reduced due to different builds. Like 25 per individual build.
With 10 weeks of testing those 25 people need to completely test two levels of their build each and every week.

So that means any particular level or class feature was tested by twenty-five people for half a game session.

You seem to be assuming that each play tester will play one build of one class over 20 levels, in the time remaining. I suspect that the "focused, directed play" that Mearls mentioned will be "fairly boring" in comparison. Something closer to each tester plays the same two levels of the same class over and over again with different builds, weapons, and items. Or running the same encounter four times with different levels of resources already expended, or adding one monster each time, etc.

 

[Lord_Blacksteel]

Beyond any sour grapes, I wonder if people will stay away simply because they've realized they don't need to buy new D&D books.

A lot of people simply bought D&D books because that was the default thing to do, and then suddenly realized that they couldn't do that any more. Then, they moved on to other things: Pathfinder, or another rpg, or continuing with 3e. If that course is working for them, what motivation is there to buy 5e? Very little, as I see it. If 5e were some great new revelation, that would be one thing, but we haven't seen that so far.

You could say the same thing about 1E, 2E, 3E, 4E, and Pathfinder. There's a first time for everything I suppose, but a new version of D&D, after the bungled handling of 4E, is going to sell a ton of books. Will it be more or less than any particular edition launch? There's no way to know at this point, but the idea that they're going to release and not sell a bunch of them seems unlikely at best.

I've mentioned it in a few other threads but the real question is staying power. Assuming Next/5E launches in mid to late 2014 it will dominate sales and news and discussion for months. How will it be doing in late 2015? How about Pathfinder and 13th Age and Numenera and DCC and all of the other nifty games launching lately? 3E ran for years, 4E seemed to get into trouble within a year. Licensing and the online tools will affect this somewhat I expect and we have no idea how those are going to go. Should be a fun ride though.

 

[Warbringer]

Name me one rpg that doesn't have any errors.

We're dealing only in shades of gray here; "better" or "worse". There's never going to be an rpg that doesn't require revisions.

I'm missing what your point is here?

... and that is fifty shades of gray to you ....

 

[Warbringer]

I'd put the number of closed playtesters closer to 10000, not 1000.

For a GenCon release, I think they will need to send to printers by April -- at least if they are using the same printers they have been recently.

Honestly, the lack of bonuses will also hopefully reduce the room for bugs significantly.

I can comment more on this when I talk to some folks.

Which is typesetting by March ...
Errata during February ..
Rules lock end of Jan ...

Sheesh!!!

 

[MoonSong]

Which is typesetting by March ...
Errata during February ..
Rules lock end of Jan ...

Sheesh!!!

That's why I think a Christmas realease it's more likely, but almost everybody seems fixated on GenCon...

 

[Warunsun]

That's why I think a Christmas realease it's more likely, but almost everybody seems fixated on GenCon...

One reason is because WotC has moved the "D&D Experience" to GenCon. I think a Christmas release or possibly October is more realistic but GenCon is the big show. They might possibly highlight the new system at next GenCon but release in October. Pretty sure I read that RPG game sales are actually down around Christmas because of other Christmas purchases. They might be trying to avoid the holiday.