The problem is choice

I would necessarily characterize sitting out a game as taking my ball and going home because I didn't get my way. My friends like to play Vampire but I don't. I'm OK with sitting out that game and giving them a chance to play it rather than play something that I won't enjoy very much. Our friendship isn't threatened by that. If anything, that strikes me as a reasonably adult reaction - letting other people have their fun even if it means I'm not participating in it.
I am in complete agreement with you. When it comes to LARPing, everyone in my group LARPs except myself. They are always inviting me hoping that I will change my mind. However, I have had no interest in since giving it up for many years.

As a player, I walked out of a boss's high level AD&D game, because they were playing it, literally, as fantasy superheroes modeled after cosmic powered characters . I wasn't having fun and didn't want to put a damper on their fun. I joined them for Talisman board games (one of the few board games that I would play- before the company refused to send me a copy of the sheet missing from a Talisman set I purchased 200 miles from where I lived).

I also have a very good friend with whom I will not include in a campaign. He gets into character. He does not try to min-max or power game. We see eye to eye with the exception of one key difference- he likes to play evil characters (in supers, it is antiheroes influenced by Punisher, Deadpool and several Image characters and wants the body count to match). He'll start off trying to play a heroic character and, eventually, slip into the above mode. As a GM, that one thing is annoying and not the kind of game that I want to run. We both recognize that, based on this one key issue, our want in a game is irreconcilable and we are better off not gaming with one another. However, away from the table, he is a great guy and like a brother to me.
 

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Could you elaborate on that?

Sure, one version is the player playing primarily for power or what they think is power as defined in the game.. For this definition with D&D, a player would be a power gamer if their primary focus for playing is on on cool powers, bonuses to hit and/or damage output, treasure acquisition (which grants items that increase power by giving bonuses or cool powers) and/or leveling (which gives you more power (bonuses and powers) and the ability to acquire more power (treasures and further level acquisition)).
Since the above definition is based upon player focus/perception, min-maxing is not a necessary component of powergaming, but an extreme degree found on a separate axis- optimization- with its own continuum of degree. Many powergamers just also happen to engage in optimization.
 

(snip) Or, let me put it this way: Sneak attack is awful. It might look impressive at level 3, when he's doing an extra couple D6 plus some maybe ability damage, but once you hit level eight or so, almost every CR-appropriate creature and its dog is immune to crits. (snip)

Agreed.

Frankly, I'm really surprised. I would have been delighted if someone in one of my 3.xE groups had been able to make an effective rogue. But 4d6+15 subject to sneak attack conditions? That's not overpowered; that's about right at 6th-level.

How does he hit with his crappy BAB? How does he survive being hit with this crappy AC and hit points?
 

But what's the value in debating on what's overpowered or not? The OP is having difficulty addressing a problem with a player that he feels is building characters overpowered by his definition, for his game. In terms of his problem, if he feels its a problem, then its a problem. These threads seem to always become a pissing contest to show off who can dominate build wars. Anyone who doesn't optimise to the nth degree is ridden off as someone who doesn't know what they are doing.
 
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But what's the value in debating on what's overpowered or not? The OP is having difficulty addressing a problem with a player that he feels is building characters overpowered by his definition, for his game.
Because what he's considering "overpowered" is not just easy, but is all but expected on a simple low-level NPC. As I'd previously established, a level 4 NPC can match that damage with one core feat, a feat that everyone takes.
In terms of his problem, if he feels its a problem, then its a problem.
If he feels such low damage is a problem, then the problem is that the system disagrees with him.
These threads seem to always become a pissing contest to show off who can dominate build wars.
And would you be so kind as to point out who in this thread has been participating in any pissing contest other than yourself?

Or, basically, the only thing you're doing is complaining about something that wasn't happening.
Anyone who doesn't optimise to the nth degree is ridden off as someone who doesn't know what they are doing.
Seriously bro? It looks like you're trying to pull some form of satire here. I mean, come on, "ROLE-players not ROLL-players" wouldn't have looked out of place there.
 
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Because what he's considering "overpowered" is not just easy, but is all but expected on a simple low-level NPC.

All but expected by who?

As I'd previously established, a level 4 NPC can match that damage with one core feat, a feat that everyone takes.

Just because you feel you've established it, doesn't make it the only right way to play.

If he feels such low damage is a problem, then the problem is that the system disagrees with him.

The OP feels that the damage is considerably high. Because you consider it low damage doesn't give your opinion more validity than his. A big part of my point is that the system doesn't necessarily disagree with him, as you say in absolute terms, and its not so just because you say it is. Many believe the system works fine for many genres, and I agree.

And would you be so kind as to point out who in this thread has been participating in any pissing contest other than yourself?.

How am I participating in a pissing contest?

Or, basically, the only thing you're doing is complaining about something that wasn't happening.

Why, because you say it? Did you know that your if-then logic is really flawed and unimpressive? I never specified this thread, but the pissing contests happen across many threads, people arguing about how someone's build is weak and using statements like "anyone who is not a moron would do it my way."I reckon you're pretty guilty of this yourself, in this thread if you want an example. Talking like that is silly, immature and annoying to me, and I wanted to point that out. I've answered your question, I hope you can aknowledge that.

Seriously bro? It looks like you're trying to pull some form of satire here. I mean, come on, "ROLE-players not ROLL-players" wouldn't have looked out of place there.

I'm not pulling any satire, and I don't have the agenda you are suggesting it looks like I have. I don't mind how people play, and I don't have a two-bit slogan. I'll play with "roll players, role players and anyone between if it looks like it might be fun. But to help you to understand since you've gotten it so wrong, what is annoying is people with the "one true way to play, I'm right, others are not only wrong, but stupid" attitude, be it roleplaying or rollplaying.

OK, so I might get mod-smackdown for this, but I mean this honestly, and not being rude; You may think that its clever to become more crafty and sneaky about how you talk to people when you can no longer be overtly antagonistic, but no-one's hi-fiving you for your amazing wit bro, it just makes you look like you've got a problem.
 
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But what's the value in debating on what's overpowered or not? The OP is having difficulty addressing a problem with a player that he feels is building characters overpowered by his definition, for his game. In terms of his problem, if he feels its a problem, then its a problem. These threads seem to always become a pissing contest to show off who can dominate build wars. Anyone who doesn't optimise to the nth degree is ridden off as someone who doesn't know what they are doing.
That about sums it up Dwimmerlied. I have never been much of an optimizer personally and as stated, all players in this group but one can be trusted not to get ridiculous. Hell in the last D&D game we played everyone was geshalt except for me. I was playing a single classed Bard and managed to stay alive and have fun just fine.
 

Read all the post for this topic, there all sort of right but completely missing the heart of the issue, at least as I see it (yea I'll give you the answers that no one gave you here, yea ill be that arrogant).

Gonna go step by step:
I - Powerful characters and magic - You chose to DM a low-magic campaign, and yet you allowed people to play 2 spellcasters (I don't know if their full casters) and a Cleric (as per the Tier system, unofficial). I actually don't blame the guy. Math wise he chose to create to compensate for his major set back in a world where he is dependent on magic items to keep up with the powerful magic users (as per numbers and all that).
- Now, if you checked out the link I provided the rogue and swashbuckler are nowhere near tier 1, that is for a reason. That tier system is correct in my opinion, and it has been written by some "professional" power gamers.
- Next lets look at some facts, if that player wont be the "most powerful" player in the game then some one else will, and the blame and complains shift targets, and it will.

II - The rogue and feats - I wont talk about the swashbuckler its a rather "meh" class, imo.
- The rogue in my opinion is strong, not because of SA, but because of skills, there is nothing more deadlier then a player with a plan and the right skills at the right time.
- The SA is nothing, literally inconsequential to the game, great he can deal nice amount of dmg here and there. BUT can he hit the target? High armor and natural armor is a bitch to rogues. Most of the creatures in D&D have Immunity to SA. There is an armor enhancement called Fortification even the helps against SA so now even the NPCs can have immunity to SA not just monsters.
- Low HP, low AC, low fortitude and will save. Do you see the pattern? No? Let me explain, spells dear EN-world patron , spells, rogues are :):):):) against anything other then reflex save spells. Low HP, you deal some dmg and he will scamper away or even worse, die. Simply put rogues are prone to die easily cause there easy to kill.
- The feats are nice, Craven is acceptable, he has a trade-off with the -2 vs fear and the bonus DMG is only usable with a SA, fair IMO.
- The other feat, forgot its name what ever, is nothing special, he had to multi-class, he had to waste a feat, and he got a fair trade for his troubles, some numbers that don't help him too much.
Magic Missile, enough said good against everyone, well almost everyone.

III - Race - Playing the same race, lesser thiefling, oh come on just use dismissal or banish or what ever and show him that being an outsider has a major drawback, especially when you are a mere mortal compared to devils, demons, rakshashas, elemental, and so on.
- Fire elf thiefling or what ever, if he were power-gaming then he would be playing a Whisper Gnome (no LA and :):):):) ton of bonuses).

IV - Generally the player - As I see it, the guy likes numbers, he likes a certain type of character, nothing wrong with that, that is what the guy likes (seen it first hand, a friend of mine created the exact same character every time for years, and he was having fun, tho it annoyed us to no end).
- Be glad that this player is not aware of "true-legal-power-gaming", if he would be power-gaming he would create a Wizard, Cleric or Druid, nothing more powerful then these classes, and these are core, you don't even need splat-books to make them godlike.

V - The DM, (you in this case) and campaigns - Lets talk about the other half of the problem, the DM (you).
- If you allow something and it comes back and bites you in the ass, that is your fault. Be it class, race, feat, splat-book or dragon magazine, its all on you if you allow it. I'm not saying you have to read all the books, but at least read about the players characters "build" (class, race, feats) so you can weigh his character, will it fit my campaign will it be too powerful against what I planed to use against them? You allowed it, you were being sloppy in this regard, "why are you being so mean?" you ask, cause its your fault, you are aware of the fact that that player likes to "power-game" and you didn't even bother to check the math and character build, sloppy sloppy sloppy.
- Another thing, you are the one in control, if you are afraid of the SA dmg then just place the players into situations/against creatures that are immune to SA, its that easy. But make it seem like your slowly shifting towards SA immunity, cause the player will smell you fear and might accuse you of it, so throw a none-SA immune creature in front of him now and then.

VI - My honest opinion - As I see it your campaigns are mostly combat oriented, "why do you say this?", well cause if you guys would be story and role-play oriented this guy would have already left the group.
(I'm in a similar group but noone leaves, cause we are the only group the plays RPGs in the city basically, so the "number gamer" is bored every time when me and the "crazy" player start role-playing and doing stuff that does not involve combat, sometimes not even skills, the "number gamer" is bored so the DM slowly nudges us towards combat so that noone is bored).
- I would say do an experiment, do a few role-playing session, minimal combat or none at all, and see how that player reacts, just for fun (maybe even PM the results).

IN CONCLUSION:
- Rogues are weak, the character he made is weak (as per numbers), the hidden danger lie within the 2 casters and cleric.
- Don't allow anything that you are not prepared for and check you players characters before you give the "OK".

Remember this:
There is no such thing as a "powerful" character while the DM is around.
 

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