The problem is choice

[delericho]

Because what he's considering "overpowered" is not just easy, but is all but expected on a simple low-level NPC. As I'd previously established, a level 4 NPC can match that damage with one core feat, a feat that everyone takes.

The problem with your Power Attacking half-orc is that in order to achieve that damage he's had to sacrifice his BAB, and so significantly impacted his ability to score a hit. The Rogue/Swashbuckler, by contrast, has not - his BAB is only one point lower than a Fighter of the same level. (And if he's been smart, he's taken Weapon Finesse and maxed his Dex, so won't be taking a hit from his relatively lower Str, either.)

Of course, neither character is really a good choice for a player interested in optimisation - a simple cause fear spell (or, really, anything that targets the Will save) is likely to take both out of the fight pretty quickly.

 

[Ryujin]

The way that my group typically handles it, is by doing it the way that people who run into him would. If he's the major combatant then word soon spreads about him, and his abilities. The opposition makes it their job #1 to take him down, knowing just how dangerous he is.

In our campaign we had a "god among Rangers" who probably accounted for 50% of all kills, through a combination of power gaming and sketchy dice rolling. Who do you think soaked up 75% of the damage and was most frequently found backed into a corner?

Then there's the other option; role play. If he's concentrated on one aspect of his character, then inevitably he's neglected some other important parts. If he's an uncultured slug, then NPCs will treat him like one.

 

[Weather Report]

Core 3rd Ed is potentially ruinous for a campaign.

It was the old let casters run free (not changing spell descriptions, silly access to spells, etc).

3rd Ed took all limitations of casters away.

 

[Greg K]

3rd Ed took all limitations of casters away.

Well, it moved some of them to the DMG as variants:
Wizards having to find spells
Tailored spell lists by deity, wizard school, etc. although it left the specifics to the DM (which is more work than some DMs wanted to do).

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

All but expected by who?

The system.

Just because you feel you've established it, doesn't make it the only right way to play.

Oh, boy, are you really going to go down the One True Way line?

The OP feels that the damage is considerably high. Because you consider it low damage doesn't give your opinion more validity than his.

Yes it does. I'm right. A barbarian with power attack will do just as much damage. I hardly consider that an esoteric build.

A big part of my point is that the system doesn't necessarily disagree with him, as you say in absolute terms, and its not so just because you say it is. Many believe the system works fine for many genres, and I agree.

Then they, and you, are wrong.

How am I participating in a pissing contest?

If you can't see it, there's no point in explaining.

Why, because you say it?

No, because you're doing it.

Did you know that your if-then logic is really flawed and unimpressive?

Given your understanding of logic, I view this as a compliment.

I never specified this thread, but the pissing contests happen across many threads, people arguing about how someone's build is weak and using statements like "anyone who is not a moron would do it my way."

So you intentionally brought something completely unrelated to the thread into it to bitch and moan about it? Nice. Real classy, there.

I reckon you're pretty guilty of this yourself,

Funny how you have no basis for that, but okay.

in this thread if you want an example.

Sure, show me.

Talking like that is silly, immature and annoying to me, and I wanted to point that out.

Oh, yes! Of course! How could have not seen it? Actually participating in the thread and pointing out flaws in an attempt to help the OP=TOTALLY immature! Complaining about unrelated crap and then attacking anyone who's doing anything as heinously wrong as using fact? The apex of maturity and intellectualism.

I've answered your question, I hope you can aknowledge that.

If you did, I'd gladly do so. Sadly, you didn't.

I'm not pulling any satire, and I don't have the agenda you are suggesting it looks like I have.

Th fact that I ran into Poe's Law should tell you something about your post.

But to help you to understand since you've gotten it so wrong, what is annoying is people with the "one true way to play, I'm right, others are not only wrong, but stupid" attitude, be it roleplaying or rollplaying.

Funny. I don't recall any of that until you showed up. Ain't that interesting?

OK, so I might get mod-smackdown for this, but I mean this honestly, and not being rude; You may think that its clever to become more crafty and sneaky about how you talk to people when you can no longer be overtly antagonistic, but no-one's hi-fiving you for your amazing wit bro, it just makes you look like you've got a problem.

Such cutting wit!! such clever words! How could I have ever dared to disagree with one as brilliant as Dwimmer, someone so wise and intelligent he doesn't even need to use such petty little things like "coherent arguments" or "facts" to win.

And these forums really need a rolleyes smiley.

I have never been much of an optimizer personally and as stated, all players in this group but one can be trusted not to get ridiculous.

The issue, though, is that it's not ridiculous.

Do you consider a regular barbarian 6 with Power Attack a ridiculous build? Because if not, that will do more damage. And that's one feat.

Hell in the last D&D game we played everyone was geshalt except for me. I was playing a single classed Bard and managed to stay alive and have fun just fine.

That's because bards are an amazing class.

The problem with your Power Attacking half-orc is that in order to achieve that damage he's had to sacrifice his BAB, and so significantly impacted his ability to score a hit.

Except it really doesn't. AC is a joke.

The Rogue/Swashbuckler, by contrast, has not - his BAB is only one point lower than a Fighter of the same level. (And if he's been smart, he's taken Weapon Finesse and maxed his Dex, so won't be taking a hit from his relatively lower Str, either.)

Why would you do this? Strength is a better stat.

Of course, neither character is really a good choice for a player interested in optimisation - a simple cause fear spell (or, really, anything that targets the Will save) is likely to take both out of the fight pretty quickly.

Which is another reason why I find it unlikely, just from the information provided.

 

[delericho]

Except it really doesn't. AC is a joke.

You're using the wrong monsters. If the PCs are optimising, the DM either needs to do so similarly or, as we've discussed up-thread, ignore the CR values and use monsters with a suitable AC.

If the Power Attacking half-orc is using full Power Attack, that should mean a 20% reduction in his chance to hit (at 4th level; 30% at 6th). That absolutely should be a significant decision.

Why would you do this? Strength is a better stat.

Because his Dex applies to his key skills, his key save, his AC, and his missile attack bonus. (Actually, as a Swashbuckler, he also gets WF for free, so it applies to his attack rolls anyway. So he doesn't even need to spend a feat.)

The only thing he loses is the Str bonus to damage, but if his next level is in Swashbuckler then he adds his Int bonus, mitigating that loss.

Str actually does very little for characters, especially those who don't use two-handed weapons (such as our Swashbuckler friend).

 

[Weather Report]

First of all: remove Dex from Initiative.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

You're using the wrong monsters. If the PCs are optimising, the DM either needs to do so similarly or, as we've discussed up-thread, ignore the CR values and use monsters with a suitable AC.

Except AC is inefficient. AC is expensive, and AC scales oddly.

Also, high strength values are awesome, even before you add in Shock Trooper.

If the Power Attacking half-orc is using full Power Attack, that should mean a 20% reduction in his chance to hit (at 4th level; 30% at 6th). That absolutely should be a significant decision.

Except it's not.

Because his Dex applies to his key skills, his key save, his AC, and his missile attack bonus. (Actually, as a Swashbuckler, he also gets WF for free, so it applies to his attack rolls anyway. So he doesn't even need to spend a feat.)

Except skills depend more on ranks, AC is too expensive to be really good, reflex saves don't matter since direct damage is low and there are few if any SoDs on Reflex.

The only thing he loses is the Str bonus to damage, but if his next level is in Swashbuckler then he adds his Int bonus, mitigating that loss.

And there we go. That's not "only," that's a big thing. That's THE big thing.

Str actually does very little for characters, especially those who don't use two-handed weapons (such as our Swashbuckler friend).

Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten. I think the fact that he's not using a greatsword is the final proof needed to show that he's not "out to win." Greatsword is the single best weapon in the game. If he's not using it and doesn't have reach, then he either is completely, utterly incompetent or just not the munchkin the OP is accusing him of being.

 

[delericho]

Except it's not.

You might want to tell that to the PCs in my just-finished campaign, in which the Rogue was routinely pulling 6d6, 7d6, 8d6 damage sneak attacks (varying as level went up, of course). To match that raw damage, the Fighter had to use near-max Power Attack... and would have routinely missed had he actually done something so foolish. He found it vastly more effective to use low- or no- PA, and hit several times to the Rogue's once, albeit for less damage each time.

Except skills depend more on ranks,

And weapon damage depends more on Power Attack and other feats. Still better to have it than not, and Dex is tied to more Rogue skills than Str.

reflex saves don't matter since direct damage is low and there are few if any SoDs on Reflex.

Do tell - how many SoD effects are tied to a Str-based save?

 

[N'raac]

How am I participating in a pissing contest?

If you can't see it, there's no point in explaining.

I mostly agree with Dwimmerlied, but here, well, Dwimmerlied, you DID reply to Cyclone_Joker...

Why would you do this? Strength is a better stat.

Yet on another thread you insist Initiative is the gamewinner. DEX, not STR, adds to Initiative.

Except it really doesn't. AC is a joke.

Except AC is inefficient. AC is expensive, and AC scales oddly.

OK, add +1 to Armor (1,000 gp), +1 to Shield (1,000 gp), +1 Ring of Protection (2,000 gp), +1 Amulet of Natural Armor (2,000 gp) 6,000 gp. That's not enough to enchant your weapon to +2 to buy +4 AC. The defense seems to rise faster than offense. DEX and STR stat enhancers each cost the same, so that's a break even.

How bout OK, add +2 to Armor (4,000 gp), +2 to Shield (4,000 gp), +2 Ring of Protection (8,000 gp), +2 Amulet of Natural Armor (8,000 gp) 24,000 gp. That's not enough to enchant your weapon to +3, and provides +8 AC.