The problem is choice

[N'raac]

How am I participating in a pissing contest?

If you can't see it, there's no point in explaining.

I mostly agree with Dwimmerlied, but here, well, Dwimmerlied, you DID reply to Cyclone_Joker...

Why would you do this? Strength is a better stat.

Yet on another thread you insist Initiative is the gamewinner. DEX, not STR, adds to Initiative.

Except it really doesn't. AC is a joke.

Except AC is inefficient. AC is expensive, and AC scales oddly.

OK, add +1 to Armor (1,000 gp), +1 to Shield (1,000 gp), +1 Ring of Protection (2,000 gp), +1 Amulet of Natural Armor (2,000 gp) 6,000 gp. +4 AC with not enough spent to enchant your weapon to +2. The defense seems to rise faster than offense. DEX and STR stat enhancers each cost the same, so that's a break even.

How 'bout adding +2 to Armor (4,000 gp), +2 to Shield (4,000 gp), +2 Ring of Protection (8,000 gp), +2 Amulet of Natural Armor (8,000 gp) 24,000 gp. That's enough to enchant your weapon to +3, and provides +8 AC.

Toss in a Defender weapon, Combat Expertise (Improved at higher levels), max out AC, fight on the defensive throughout the Barbarian's rage, and keep making only one attack while staying at range (so he gets 1 chance per round to roll a 20 - Mobility and Spring Attack are nice here). Maintain until Rage runs out.

All that said, I agree that the character example isn't all that (over)powerful. Sneak Attack builds up pretty nicely over time, without any of the feats or swashbuckler abilities.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Yet on another thread you insist Initiative is the gamewinner. DEX, not STR, adds to Initiative.

Then you obviously didn't pay attention. Initiative is a game-winner. Initiative is also something a non-caster will never win, so there's no point in bothering.

OK, add +1 to Armor (1,000 gp), +1 to Shield (1,000 gp), +1 Ring of Protection (2,000 gp), +1 Amulet of Natural Armor (2,000 gp) 6,000 gp. +4 AC with not enough spent to enchant your weapon to +2. The defense seems to rise faster than offense. DEX and STR stat enhancers each cost the same, so that's a break even.

Then you're not paying much attention. Base attack bonus and strength rise faster than that.

How 'bout adding +2 to Armor (4,000 gp), +2 to Shield (4,000 gp), +2 Ring of Protection (8,000 gp), +2 Amulet of Natural Armor (8,000 gp) 24,000 gp. That's enough to enchant your weapon to +3, and provides +8 AC.

Toss in a Defender weapon, Combat Expertise (Improved at higher levels), max out AC, fight on the defensive throughout the Barbarian's rage, and keep making only one attack while staying at range (so he gets 1 chance per round to roll a 20 - Mobility and Spring Attack are nice here). Maintain until Rage runs out.

So what level is this? Because I'm pretty much positive that it's nigh-impossible for you to raise your AC to the point where a barbarian, especially a raging barbarian, will ever miss. And, of course, any barbarian will also chunky salsa that thing in one hit. Show me a build, tell me a level, and I'll throw together a build that won't miss.

All that said, I agree that the character example isn't all that (over)powerful. Sneak Attack builds up pretty nicely over time, without any of the feats or swashbuckler abilities.

No it doesn't. It's easy to shut down for dirt cheap.

 

[Celebrim]

A little background: I am running a 3.5 game set in the Forgotten realms...I am running a somewhat low power, low magic game...

Those two things don't go together. Error. Does not compute. Does not compute.

...so I tried to flat out ban some of what I thought was overpowered. One of my players has in my opinion min-maxed his sneak attack to what I think is ridiculous. I'm truly considering a reboot of his, if not everyone's characters. I know that sneak attack is situational but most of the creatures I can use that are immune are also immune to critical hits and that's bad for the rest of the group. Our other DM in his campaign had to scale up all the encounters just to keep his min-maxed warlock from destroying everything. I don't want to take that route because its also unfair to the other players. Any ideas on how to keep the power level down without just flat out going ban-happy?

Keep it to core. Allow anything from outside of core solely on a by exception basis. Ban Druids. A few other slight tweaks and you should be good. A few posters are going to whine about OP spell-casters. Don't listen. There are a few OP spells that need nerfed, and things get out of hand after 13th level or so. But for the most part in a low magic game, spell-casters are really squishy.

I have a 500 page house rule document that outlines everything that is allowed in my game. Almost none of it is from outside core that isn't homebrew. It keeps things balanced between characters for the most part. As a DM though, it is your job to help all the players fit within a certain framework of balance. IF a player makes an overweak or overstrong character, it's your job to at least council the player on the consequences to the game and other players.

All that said, I have a hard time imagining a sneak attack build that is a serious problem.

 

[Argyle King]

In my experience with 3rd, if you're going for an OP character, even starting to look at damage and whether or not you can hit is getting off on the wrong foot. Some of the most broken magic spells can kill (or lead to being killed) without even dealing damage (Sleep is an easy low level example.) Likewise, there are spells such as reverse gravity which don't require me to even hit my target to effect them.

@ The OP.

I'd possibly consider using a different game; a non D&D game; possibly not even a d20 game. My apologies if this comes across as unhelpful, but, honestly, I was once someone who was frustrated for D&D for some of the same reasons you're alluding to in your original post. I wanted to run a particular style of game, and I found myself first being frustrated with 3rd, and then 4th. I learned that there was nothing wrong with those systems; I just was trying to use them for something they weren't great at doing.

If using D&D is something that is required, consider an E6 game.

 

[Chase A.]

I've already decided to go with the E6 game rules. I really think that will fit nicely with the kind of campaign I want. Cyclone Joker, your attitude and the way you continue to talk down to myself and others reminds me of the player I'm talking about. Based on the fact that your account is brand new I'm not convinced you aren't him. Either way your posts aren't in any way helpful and I stopped reading them because of your snide attitude. Please stop posting in my threads.

 

[silverblade56]

All but expected by who?



Just because you feel you've established it, doesn't make it the only right way to play.



The OP feels that the damage is considerably high. Because you consider it low damage doesn't give your opinion more validity than his. A big part of my point is that the system doesn't necessarily disagree with him, as you say in absolute terms, and its not so just because you say it is. Many believe the system works fine for many genres, and I agree.



How am I participating in a pissing contest?



Why, because you say it? Did you know that your if-then logic is really flawed and unimpressive? I never specified this thread, but the pissing contests happen across many threads, people arguing about how someone's build is weak and using statements like "anyone who is not a moron would do it my way."I reckon you're pretty guilty of this yourself, in this thread if you want an example. Talking like that is silly, immature and annoying to me, and I wanted to point that out. I've answered your question, I hope you can aknowledge that.



I'm not pulling any satire, and I don't have the agenda you are suggesting it looks like I have. I don't mind how people play, and I don't have a two-bit slogan. I'll play with "roll players, role players and anyone between if it looks like it might be fun. But to help you to understand since you've gotten it so wrong, what is annoying is people with the "one true way to play, I'm right, others are not only wrong, but stupid" attitude, be it roleplaying or rollplaying.

OK, so I might get mod-smackdown for this, but I mean this honestly, and not being rude; You may think that its clever to become more crafty and sneaky about how you talk to people when you can no longer be overtly antagonistic, but no-one's hi-fiving you for your amazing wit bro, it just makes you look like you've got a problem.

That seems a bit out of line. No one is saying his players suck or that optimizing is the only way to play the game. He is simply pointing out that what the PC is doing is not out of line for a typical 3.5 game. The OP either needs to adjust his expectations about what his players can do, even without tons of splatbooks and lots of magic, and adjust the encounters accordingly, or play something different. As we pointed out, even just using core only, a simple half-orc barbarian with good strength and a two handed weapon plus power attack can easily do more damage than the "problem" character in question. It's not like we are just saying him and his players are doing it wrong. We have offered suggestions (like using E6) which he seemed to appreciate. Of course even with E6 a half-orc barbarian can still do a lot of damage but at least it won't keep escalating and the casters won't become such a dominating force like at higher levels.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Cyclone Joker, your attitude and the way you continue to talk down to myself and others reminds me of the player I'm talking about.

Cool. I guess I'll take that as a compliment, given that player's apparently bottomless patience.

Based on the fact that your account is brand new I'm not convinced you aren't him.

Wow. A combination of obliviousness and paranoia even I could never hope to match.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but you aren't the center of the world. I neither know you, nor would care to, judinging from your posts here.

Either way your posts aren't in any way helpful and I stopped reading them because of your snide attitude.

Well there's your problem. Isn't it funny how that works out?

Also, judging from this post, I really think you need to look up that definition yourself. Or at least an idiom about glass houses and whatnot.

Please stop posting in my threads.

Meh.

That seems a bit out of line. No one is saying his players suck or that optimizing is the only way to play the game. He is simply pointing out that what the PC is doing is not out of line for a typical 3.5 game. The OP either needs to adjust his expectations about what his players can do, even without tons of splatbooks and lots of magic, and adjust the encounters accordingly, or play something different. As we pointed out, even just using core only, a simple half-orc barbarian with good strength and a two handed weapon plus power attack can easily do more damage than the "problem" character in question. It's not like we are just saying him and his players are doing it wrong. We have offered suggestions (like using E6) which he seemed to appreciate. Of course even with E6 a half-orc barbarian can still do a lot of damage but at least it won't keep escalating and the casters won't become such a dominating force like at higher levels.

Nonsense! All I have ever said in this thread is that fighters are the suxxorz, wizardz rox, and that people who don't play Pun-Pun are losers! I mean, what thread have you been reading, the one that's actually here? Pssh, responding to the actual thread is, like, totally for squares, dude.
[sblock]Okay, sorry, that actually hurt to type. I apologize for any eyes spontaneously bleeding or any vomiting as a result of that paragraph.[/sblock]

 

[N'raac]

Keep it to core. Allow anything from outside of core solely on a by exception basis. Ban Druids. A few other slight tweaks and you should be good. A few posters are going to whine about OP spell-casters. Don't listen. There are a few OP spells that need nerfed, and things get out of hand after 13th level or so. But for the most part in a low magic game, spell-casters are really squishy.

Actually, one suggestion you make on another thread - ditch Concentration so spellcasters cannot blithely cast in melee - seems like it would add to the low power, low magic structure.

 

[N'raac]

Cyclone Joker, your attitude and the way you continue to talk down to myself and others reminds me of the player I'm talking about. Based on the fact that your account is brand new I'm not convinced you aren't him. Either way your posts aren't in any way helpful and I stopped reading them because of your snide attitude. Please stop posting in my threads.

Cool. I guess I'll take that as a compliment, given that player's apparently bottomless patience.
Wow. A combination of obliviousness and paranoia even I could never hope to match.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but you aren't the center of the world. I neither know you, nor would care to, judinging from your posts here.
Well there's your problem. Isn't it funny how that works out?

Also, judging from this post, I really think you need to look up that definition yourself. Or at least an idiom about glass houses and whatnot.
Meh.
Nonsense! All I have ever said in this thread is that fighters are the suxxorz, wizardz rox, and that people who don't play Pun-Pun are losers! I mean, what thread have you been reading, the one that's actually here? Pssh, responding to the actual thread is, like, totally for squares, dude.
[sblock]Okay, sorry, that actually hurt to type. I apologize for any eyes spontaneously bleeding or any vomiting as a result of that paragraph.[/sblock]

Made my Will save at last.

No comment on the above!

 

[Dwimmerlied]

The system.

Only if you disregard parts of the system. The system advises that it is wise to choose what to allow in your game. Your arguments only work if you completely disregard this.

Oh, boy, are you really going to go down the One True Way line?.

No, but you may be. Here's why;

Yes it does. I'm right. A barbarian with power attack will do just as much damage. I hardly consider that an esoteric build.

Then they, and you, are wrong.

If you can't see it, there's no point in explaining.

Why not? There was a point in bring it up, after all.

Given your understanding of logic, I view this as a compliment.

I'll disregard this, but quote it to highlight why some people might think you have an attitude problem.

So you intentionally brought something completely unrelated to the thread into it to bitch and moan about it? Nice. Real classy, there.

I already made clear my motivations. If you read my post, you will see that I don't believe its unrelated at all. Which leaves the question. Whats your point? Whats your motivation?

If you disagree with my assessment, would you rather ignore it? Understand where I'm coming from? Try to change my mind? Or use hostile, provocative and emotive language that looks like a veiled attempt to rile and insult?

Oh, yes! Of course! How could have not seen it? Actually participating in the thread and pointing out flaws in an attempt to help the OP=TOTALLY immature! Complaining about unrelated crap and then attacking anyone who's doing anything as heinously wrong as using fact? The apex of maturity and intellectualism.

Why do you use so much sarcasm? Does it make your message clearer? Do you think it makes the communication better?

Th fact that I ran into Poe's Law should tell you something about your post.

What?

Such cutting wit!! such clever words! How could I have ever dared to disagree with one as brilliant as Dwimmer, someone so wise and intelligent he doesn't even need to use such petty little things like "coherent arguments" or "facts" to win.

Wow, I guess that's a lot of sarcasm; maybe you think that that's what I expect you to be thinking? Hmm. If it helps you to understand, I don't consider myself, or anyone else much more intelligent than any other person. If you think I have a problem with being disagreed with, well, I'll suggest that's because you've spent more energy being sarcastic and rude than trying to understand what I'm trying to communicate. Why is that?

I have a different opinion than you. I'll not claim that I'm absolutely right. That IS ridiculous. The system can support many genres. I've found this, and so have others. The system advises to be careful what additional stuff you allow in your game, so it is part of the system to weigh up each new class, feat, whatever for your game. If you think it will break your game, RAW, don'tuse it. That's a part of the system many people seem to disregard.

I understand the arguments against this, but I don't think that they are the end of the story. I don't think its that helpful to tell someone that they are "doing it wrong" as if it were, to use your language "the one way", "your build is weak, anyone with any intelligence will build like this because it is stupid to do otherwise, and against the system." My use of the words "pissing contest' is too antagonistic, I absolutely agree. But what I intend to articulate is an annoyance at this attitude. "they, and you are wrong". "I can make a better build that will do more damage, so you are wrong", "sorry, but your build, philosophy and way of playing are not only stupid but incorrect by the system" "barage of sarcastic, passive aggresive comments". Maybe not pissing contest, I guess people can substitute words for themselves that reflect the attitude behind these statements.