D&D 5E Should we add to the STR skills with combat function?

[DEFCON 1]

A frequent complaint for the skill list has been the fact that STR only has a single skill-- Athletics. And because the actions that require a STR check usually (during normal adventuring) tend to be climbing, jumping, and swimming (with only the rarest occasion of forcing doors/bending bars)... the argument is that you practically never have STR checks that don't involve adding the Athletics skill. And that kind of bothers people (myself included). It seems like you should have to select from multiple skills for the STR check to be proficient in, just like there are multiple ways to be dexterous, intelligent, wise or charismatic.

To solve that problem, in 3E it was about splitting up those three uses of STR-- Climb, Jump, and Swim. But then the argument went that those three uses individually were used so infrequently in a normal adventuring day compared to something like Perception that it wasn't worth taking any of them rather than a more frequent skill. Which again, is also a problem.

So my question is... based upon the current rules for proficiency and combat actions... do you think we've reached a point where we could actually create a combat-related Skill to affect your Strength ability check-- despite the entire history that I know people will bring up about how combat stuff should be feats and non-combat stuff should be skills?

Here's my thinking: Right now there are I think two combat actions that require STR checks-- Grapple and Knock Down. And as far as I'm aware, there's no feat currently in the game to make your STR check better to make it easier to do either of those actions. However... since all those actions are straight STR check contests... isn't this a case where adding your proficiency bonus would make the most logical sense to allow you to be better at grapple and knock down?

Is there currently a reason (other than the legacy of "skills are non-combat!" as I said) why we shouldn't now have a skill called Strength (Martial Arts) that grants you your proficiency bonus to combat actions that require Strength checks? Grapple, Knock Down, any other STR-based combat action they add to the game?

Seems to me... it makes much more sense based upon how the rules are currently set up to just make these functions a part of the skill system (for proficiency bonus) that it would be to shunt this stuff into a feat of some kind. Because let's be honest... skills do not need to be anywhere near as powerful as feats currently are. Trying to create a Martial Arts feat that makes it easier to grapple or trip will be much more difficult to balance versus the +1 to ability score-- you'd have to probably add a bunch more stuff. But just making these few segments of STR checks into a skill? Much more likely to be taken (especially by fighters and the like), and much less worry whether or not you're getting as much bang for your buck (compared to other skills.) And in addition... it gives us more Strength skill checks to select from, which I think is a good idea.

That's my pitch: A new skill Strength (Martial Arts) that allows you to add your proficiency bonus to all combat actions that ask for Strength checks contests.

What do you think?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

No.

STR is powerful enough already due to its use for attacks and damage.

 

[Li Shenron]

I would definitely back you up on the idea of a Strength(Grapple) skill, actually we've had something like that in 3e for a while, but I don't remember how it worked.

However, the big question is that Grapple shouldn't be too easy in general. In 3e it was often the ultimate anti-caster trick (maybe second to Silence). I did not like that. I don't want there to be a trick that renders a spellcaster useless and that takes a minimum investment.

Grapple rules actually don't let you add your BAB to checks like in 3e (because there is no BAB anymore), and this is good! Thus maybe it is actually possible to have Strength(Grapple) in the game without making it too powerful, because after all the max is +6.

For Takedown I am a bit less confident, since it's hard to tell whether it should be Str or Dex (and I would bet it's Dex actually). But I'd rather keep it separate from Grapple!

 

[Li Shenron]

No.

STR is powerful enough already due to its use for attacks and damage.

What do you mean?

Strength bonuses already applies to Grapple checks and Takedown checks.

Having two skills to give you a bonus on those checks (including when you're on the defender's side) doesn't make the Strength stat more powerful or important.

 

[Kobold Stew]

A grapple skill of some kind is a good idea.

Currently, however, it would be a trivial skill to acquire: the Athlete feat gives THREE strength or dexterity skills in addition to +1 strength. Given that there are only four such skills in the game (currently), adding a fifth does not meaningfully change the ease of their availability with this feat.

(The OP indicated the problem with this feat currently -- everyone not already trained would be a fool not to take Athletics and Acrobatics (and now Grappling).)

The feat needs to be changed, but the new skill is reasonable.

 

[Klaus]

I like it!

I actually like it a lot!

 

[Kinak]

I could get behind this.

I'd see this as more like "proficiency in combat maneuvers" but it amounts to the same thing with the current packet.

I kind of wish Perception would go away or be free for everyone or somehow reduced in usefulness to match the other skills. I'm thinking about Jump/Swim/Climb becoming Athletics, but many of the skills have been twisted around trying to catch up with Perception. I'm as guilty as anyone, calling for Perception checks more than other skill checks put together, but the game would need to require dozens of additional skill checks a session to bring other skills in line with it.

Once that elephant is out of the room, the other skills can breathe and be balanced only against each other.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

What do you mean?

Strength bonuses already applies to Grapple checks and Takedown checks.

Having two skills to give you a bonus on those checks (including when you're on the defender's side) doesn't make the Strength stat more powerful or important.

I mean that STR already has plenty of combat uses, and doesn't need further double-dipping. Bounded accuracy, remember? Keeping stacking modifiers from growing out of control?

I could see a need for more out-of-combat STR skills, or more in-combat non-STR/DEX skills. But STR already has plenty of contribution to the combat arena.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I kind of wish Perception would go away or be free for everyone or somehow reduced in usefulness to match the other skills.

I have also agreed with this, and currently in my 4E game I am using the Perception and Search skill split (although I call them Observation & Investigation.) Observation is the passive, WIS-based skill to randomly notice things (spot, listen etc.)... and Investigation is the active, INT-based skill to look for stuff (secret doors, stealthed foes, traps, tracks, clues etc.) That has helped quite a bit to reduce Perception's ubiquity.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I mean that STR already has plenty of combat uses, and doesn't need further double-dipping. Bounded accuracy, remember? Keeping stacking modifiers from growing out of control?

But you're not double-dipping. STR is already the ability you use for Grapple and Knock Down. You make a STR check against an opponent's STR or DEX check. But here's the issue: you will never get better at Grapple or Knock Down as you advance in level, unlike attacking with a weapon. You get better with weapons as you level because you add your Proficiency bonus to your attack roll. That currently doesn't happen with the Grapple or Knock Down action.

It's my thinking that yes... the Grapple and Knock Down actions should get better as you go up in level just like all attacks and checks do (because they add the Proficiency bonus). So the question is... how do you make them better? Do you go the 3E method of making feats like Improved Grapple or Improved Trip (where the feat allows you to add a bonus?) Or should we just use the system we already have in place and allow you to add your Proficiency bonus to your STR checks to Grapple and Knock Down?

To me... that makes the most sense because it follows the same format as every other ability check in the game. And since it is an ability check... you might as well just make it a Skill to select as the reason to add your Proficiency bonus (rather than making a Feat that says "Add your proficiency bonus to Grapple or Knock Down", since I think we can all agree that that is NOT equivalent to the +1 to an ability score, and thus is a bad Feat.)