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Fighters vs. Spellcasters (a case for fighters.)

Hey I'm with you in the iterative attacks thing. Trailblazer's take was a marked improvement to me.
Trailblazer D&D is marked improvement over standard 3.5 or PF. I'm not entirely taken with his spellcaster fix, but everything else is pretty solid.

An odd, but possibly true statement. How a Flame Tongue works is negotiable, but it seems kind of important to have.
Morrus had something on the front page about it, some sort of survey. Can't quite remember the details, but it was interesting.
 

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I was focusing on the idea that the GM is final arbiter of events within the game.

In Gygaxian play as described in his PHB and (in less detail, I thnk) in his DMG, the GM is not the final arbiter of events within the game. Events within the game emerge from the interaction between the PCs, as played by their players, with the setting elements that the GM has either created in advance or is generating via random rolls. The goal for players is to show off their skill (and Gygax makes repeated references to skilled players, and repeated criticisms of players who are unskilled).

The whole idea of skilled play in Gygax's sense - that, through skilled play, the players can have their PCs overcome challenges and achieve their goals within the gameworld - entails that the GM is not the final arbiter of events within the game. The players' skill is the ultimate determinant. (And the only time that Gygax canvasses fudging dice in his DMG - and then with some hesitation - is if the oddities of the dice rolls are going to bring an undeserved consequence onto a PC whose player has nevertheless played skilfully.)

Of course the GM is the final arbitrator of events within the game. That's the very mechanism by which a player's actions for his PCs have any outcome whatsoever. I think that for any statement that the GM is not the final arbitrator of events within the game to be true, even with what you're calling Gygaxian play, you have to be relying on a definition of arbitrate that is so nuanced that it is functionally useless.

How does skilled play lead to outcomes? The GM evaluates the PC's actions against the situation and adjudicates the result. Skilled play can be expected to yield results favorable to the players more often than unskilled play assuming the GM is sufficiently impartial and fair, but they do so because of GM arbitration in that fashion. To assert that the GM is not the final arbiter strikes me as either a fundamental misunderstanding or an attempt to bamboozle the reader about what is going on in favor of some polemical position.
 

Trailblazer D&D is marked improvement over standard 3.5 or PF. I'm not entirely taken with his spellcaster fix, but everything else is pretty solid.
And they created new rules for combat reactions and slightly enhanced the fighter class in several ways. All without giving it anything that looks or works remotely like a spell. Amazing.
 

For me, the paladin is obviously the most game-breaking class because it mandates antisocial behavior and explicitly encourages the DM to (wait for it) forcefully discipline the player based on the code. So I ban it. It's "a" problem that I have (which also is not rare, by the way). Does that mean that it should be written out of the game? Changed into something completely different? That the entire game should be redesigned specifically to fix "a" problem?
No, yes, and no. If the problem is "spells don't work the way I think they should work", then you're probably in the market for a whole new game.

Gee, it's almost like people have such different assumptions of play that it's impossible to get them all to play one game. If only there was a company that owned the rights to multiple versions of a popular game, each version of which could be steered towards different playstyles. What a dream world I live in, right?
 

And they created new rules for combat reactions and slightly enhanced the fighter class in several ways. All without giving it anything that looks or works remotely like a spell. Amazing.
True, but there's the counter argument that the most distinctive and possibly best feature of D&D is the spells. They're contained dumps of quantized rules exception. There's nothing about them that suggests they couldn't be a rules anchor for any rules exception you care to add.

I know you won't agree, because you like more streamlined systems that build up from a simulationist core (as per your remark that magic could easily be a d20 based skill), but it's not like it's corner gossip on Insane Street in Crazy Town.
 

True, but there's the counter argument that the most distinctive and possibly best feature of D&D is the spells. They're contained dumps of quantized rules exception. There's nothing about them that suggests they couldn't be a rules anchor for any rules exception you care to add.

I can think of at least one example in PF where spell effects act as the base for a new rule's system: haunts.

And, when designing PF material, spells do give a pretty nice little framework of references for new powers and the like.

edit: though they are not the only such framework available, and I wouldn't want to use them for everything. Feats and the like provide a better framework for more mundane abilities.
 

Gee, it's almost like people have such different assumptions of play that it's impossible to get them all to play one game. If only there was a company that owned the rights to multiple versions of a popular game, each version of which could be steered towards different playstyles. What a dream world I live in, right?

The sad thing is that, given the economic realities of the situation, you may be in a dream world. I fully believe WotC/Paizo/whomever when they say that they can't currently support every edition of a game to the extent that fans of that game would want them to. Development of new products can be expensive and, if they don't make enough money, damaging to the ability of the company to support any of their games. Edition neutral products may offer some value, but if differing editions entail sufficiently incompatible requirements for their support, they become unattractive to produce. Plus, they put more burden on the GM than ones with more devoted mechanical focus and may not sell quite as well within each market segment as an edition-focused source would. Of course, less restrictive licensing may be a good alternative to producing everything on their own...

I give WotC high marks for trying to produce an edition that will try to bring those market segments together and support them all with a modular rule system, but I expect they'll probably alienate at least one of those market segments. One just hopes they manage to retain or regain ones big enough to have made the effort worthwhile.
 

edit: though they are not the only such framework available, and I wouldn't want to use them for everything. Feats and the like provide a better framework for more mundane abilities.
If I was making a more cohesive 3.5, I would make the spell framework used for activated abilities (as it has the standard nomenclature for range, number of targets, save to use, etc.) and the feat framework for passive abilities.
 

True, but there's the counter argument that the most distinctive and possibly best feature of D&D is the spells. They're contained dumps of quantized rules exception. There's nothing about them that suggests they couldn't be a rules anchor for any rules exception you care to add.
One could also define feats as "quantized dump of rules exception" (pre-2e, there were a bunch of those dumps, to the point where that was the norm, though it's true that spells have always been one of them). So I think it's fair to compare spells and feats, and ask which is the more suitable base for a rules system.

Spells have substantial, but largely non-specific limitations on access. Class and level are obvious ones; you have to be a 9th level cleric to cast Raise Dead, but if you're a 9th level cleric you can cast pretty much any spell your class has access to of levels 0 through 5. Conversely, feats have fewer, but more specific access restrictions. Power Attack requires you to have 13+ Str, but a character of almost any race or class could conceivably meet that requirement. Feats also have iterative prerequisites, which leads to feat chains ending in more powerful and specialized feats, while spells do not have this structure. Many feats have no prerequisites.

D&D spells are defined by per-time use restrictions. You have to rest and get ready, and there's only so many you can cast in a day. They do not tap any centralized resource (i.e. casting a Fireball has no effect on your ability to cast Magic Missile), and there are no implications to expending these limited uses other than running out of spells (i.e. you don't become fatigued). Feats usually work constantly or whenever the player uses them, occasionally have circumstantial limitations, and very rarely have any per-time use limitations like spells.

Spells often create new rules (Confusion effectively creates the confused condition for example). Feats usually leverage existing rules more, granting modifiers to actions and circumstances described elsewhere.

Spells are more textually intensive and take up more space. Feats take only as much space as the concept demands. A lot of people complain about how much space is used the the 3e PHB for spells, let alone the 4e books for powers.

I know you won't agree, because you like more streamlined systems that build up from a simulationist core (as per your remark that magic could easily be a d20 based skill), but it's not like it's corner gossip on Insane Street in Crazy Town.
You're right. I don't agree. Not because I don't understand the approach, but because it does seem a little crazy when there's a simpler and more flexible "quantized rule exception" paradigm right there waiting to be utilized.

Having both feats and spells is really redundant (both 3e and 4e do; 4e just has a lot more spells, uses them for all classes, and less emphasis on feats). And yes, I do think it's best when designing a d20 game to adhere as closely to the core mechanic as possible, and for exceptions to be purposeful and worthwhile. I just think if you had to pick one approach between spells/powers and feats, feats are the way to go. Show me a system that converts the existing magic system to something based on d20 modifiers (skills) and feats, and I'm all for it.

If I was making a more cohesive 3.5, I would make the spell framework used for activated abilities (as it has the standard nomenclature for range, number of targets, save to use, etc.) and the feat framework for passive abilities.
I wouldn't. I think feats are a better framework for active abilities as well. Plenty of feats are actively used.
 

Spells are more textually intensive and take up more space. Feats take only as much space as the concept demands. A lot of people complain about how much space is used the the 3e PHB for spells, let alone the 4e books for powers.
True, but don't most active abilities require lines like range, targeting, saves, etc.? Or, at least, it's helpful to have commonly accessed parameters necessary for adjudication at your fingertips, rather than buried within the text?
 

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