TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
Well, a general wearing down, yes. Which is what healing surges/recoveries model.
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D&D 5E "Damage on a miss" poll.
- Thread starter ForeverSlayer
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Burninator
First Post
It would have to be opposed rolls, since every attack is not equally well placed, and that's dependent on the attacker's skill / luck. Defenders rolling dex saves is a perfect way to implement DR.
Any DR system rolled out should modify any and all subsystems to make HP = actual penetrating wounds. Realism module, FTW.
But, this mechanic as it stands, means the default game does not support simulationists at all, where it clearly once did (one could ignore the nonsensical definition of HP, better that than try to distort the meanings of all ancillary words used to describe discrete game events as being subservient to game definitions, that's awful).
In a fast & loose game, I still want the narration to be coherent. This prevents that, entirely. Miss is not "miss", it's still the opposite. These words are defined as their opposite, everyone knows that. Once you start second guessing every single word, there is no coherent way to imagine what's going on. And that's bad for a game based on imagination. You can say certain things are vague, but "you succeeded" and "you failed" are two mutually exclusive states that should not have overlapping truth values (cannot, really). Only in quantum mechanics do those weird things happen, but D&D is not quantum mechanics, and shouldn't be as counter-intuitive to play. I can explain the Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle or how special relativity means reference frames are relative (but the speed of light isn't!), but I don't want to have to live in a quantum superposition of states just to play D&D. Most people can't even pass basic physics questions, let alone ascend into higher end physics topics, and I have no desire to play a game where I'm forced to have to say "that's nonsense" every single round.
D&D is inconsistent in a lot of places, but this is round-by-round, in your face, can't deny it, can't escape it, pure stupidity. HP is meaningless with the definition they gave. There's nothing magical about fighters. There's nothing about luck being lost when you lose HP (your odds of success at any contest are unchanged from 1 HP to max HP).
In short, HP is defined to be meaningless sludge, despite it having the term Hit right there, front and center, people think misses are equivalent to hits in D&D, sort of like how the Ministry of Truth teaches BlackWhite and DouplePlusUngood NewSpeak to its subjects, as a form of mental torture and control. No, thanks, I want RPGs to make at least some sense, if not all the time, at least most of the time. Fighters attacks, or character health has no divine or magical agency narrated ANYWHERE in the game, if they wanted to they could easily say D&D PCs are all magical, and HP is gaia's Love score. But it isn't. D&D allows you to pretend to be a joe bloe, off the street, picks up a sword and fights in a world full of magic. But he himself isn't magical. Why? Because it's defined that way! Fighters are non-magical classes. So are rogues. Magic effects belong in magic classes. Never missing is a magical effect, and belongs, if anywhere, in classes specifically defined to be magical in nature.
People love quoting that HP definition, not realizing how easily and utterly demolished it can be. Trivially. HP has never been coherent with the way combat is narrated, from the start. Combat is narrated like wounds are accrued gradually until you die, yes they ignore delibitating wounds, or slowing you down, but that stuff is handwaved out of the game because even for simulationists, it's a bridge too far and not worth the effort. Combat is specifically talking about sword thrusts and cuts, it's absurd to say hits and misses don't result in injuries, absurd on its face! Try getting hit from a sword and not bleeding. HP, as defined now, means you CANNOT describe hits as being different than misses, because misses with a weapon now can cause damage and even kill you. How? Doesn't explain. Just handwave, say it's "abstract" so false stuff is true, refer to nonsensical definitions instead of trying to clean them up.
New editions should clean up bugs from prior ones, not introduce new ones. It's totally going backwards. If the game is to evolve, we have to identify clearly what bugs there are, maybe perhaps not solve them all in a single iteration, but over time the game should be perfected, instead of remain as nonsensical as the day the definition of Hit Points was penned to a page. They could solve the HP-as-meaningless stat problem, but chose not to! Why? Specifically to allow impossible mechanics to exist.
It's funny calling GWF narrativist, because you can't actually narrate it without uttering nonsense. Gamist, is better. But it means they've given up any pretense of being inclusive to those who want the game to make a semblance of physical sense with this. Not only physical, but logical. No human is so perfect that they cannot fail to injure a foe, under any circumstance, with their sword. No one. Without magic. But since fighters aren't magic, they shouldn't get this.
Warlocks? Sure! Give it to them! Just call it a magical ability and be honest about it. I'm not buying it, and I've worked on MMOs with flying dragons and respawning and zones and camping and so on. I can handle abstract fine. I can't handle utter nonsense BS garbage. And I won't pay for a company to insult my intelligence like this. Just admit it's magical, and remove it from the fighter.
I want the fighter class to be simple, straightforward, easy to play and easy to narrate. Some people don't, but that's their problem, D&D fighters have always, until 4th ed, been easy to understand how they do their schtick. This is a step back into the abyss of bad game design that will drive people away. Not only simulationists, but anyone who has the remotest respect for the english language or basic understanding of physics, or logic.
Any DR system rolled out should modify any and all subsystems to make HP = actual penetrating wounds. Realism module, FTW.
But, this mechanic as it stands, means the default game does not support simulationists at all, where it clearly once did (one could ignore the nonsensical definition of HP, better that than try to distort the meanings of all ancillary words used to describe discrete game events as being subservient to game definitions, that's awful).
In a fast & loose game, I still want the narration to be coherent. This prevents that, entirely. Miss is not "miss", it's still the opposite. These words are defined as their opposite, everyone knows that. Once you start second guessing every single word, there is no coherent way to imagine what's going on. And that's bad for a game based on imagination. You can say certain things are vague, but "you succeeded" and "you failed" are two mutually exclusive states that should not have overlapping truth values (cannot, really). Only in quantum mechanics do those weird things happen, but D&D is not quantum mechanics, and shouldn't be as counter-intuitive to play. I can explain the Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle or how special relativity means reference frames are relative (but the speed of light isn't!), but I don't want to have to live in a quantum superposition of states just to play D&D. Most people can't even pass basic physics questions, let alone ascend into higher end physics topics, and I have no desire to play a game where I'm forced to have to say "that's nonsense" every single round.
D&D is inconsistent in a lot of places, but this is round-by-round, in your face, can't deny it, can't escape it, pure stupidity. HP is meaningless with the definition they gave. There's nothing magical about fighters. There's nothing about luck being lost when you lose HP (your odds of success at any contest are unchanged from 1 HP to max HP).
In short, HP is defined to be meaningless sludge, despite it having the term Hit right there, front and center, people think misses are equivalent to hits in D&D, sort of like how the Ministry of Truth teaches BlackWhite and DouplePlusUngood NewSpeak to its subjects, as a form of mental torture and control. No, thanks, I want RPGs to make at least some sense, if not all the time, at least most of the time. Fighters attacks, or character health has no divine or magical agency narrated ANYWHERE in the game, if they wanted to they could easily say D&D PCs are all magical, and HP is gaia's Love score. But it isn't. D&D allows you to pretend to be a joe bloe, off the street, picks up a sword and fights in a world full of magic. But he himself isn't magical. Why? Because it's defined that way! Fighters are non-magical classes. So are rogues. Magic effects belong in magic classes. Never missing is a magical effect, and belongs, if anywhere, in classes specifically defined to be magical in nature.
People love quoting that HP definition, not realizing how easily and utterly demolished it can be. Trivially. HP has never been coherent with the way combat is narrated, from the start. Combat is narrated like wounds are accrued gradually until you die, yes they ignore delibitating wounds, or slowing you down, but that stuff is handwaved out of the game because even for simulationists, it's a bridge too far and not worth the effort. Combat is specifically talking about sword thrusts and cuts, it's absurd to say hits and misses don't result in injuries, absurd on its face! Try getting hit from a sword and not bleeding. HP, as defined now, means you CANNOT describe hits as being different than misses, because misses with a weapon now can cause damage and even kill you. How? Doesn't explain. Just handwave, say it's "abstract" so false stuff is true, refer to nonsensical definitions instead of trying to clean them up.
New editions should clean up bugs from prior ones, not introduce new ones. It's totally going backwards. If the game is to evolve, we have to identify clearly what bugs there are, maybe perhaps not solve them all in a single iteration, but over time the game should be perfected, instead of remain as nonsensical as the day the definition of Hit Points was penned to a page. They could solve the HP-as-meaningless stat problem, but chose not to! Why? Specifically to allow impossible mechanics to exist.
It's funny calling GWF narrativist, because you can't actually narrate it without uttering nonsense. Gamist, is better. But it means they've given up any pretense of being inclusive to those who want the game to make a semblance of physical sense with this. Not only physical, but logical. No human is so perfect that they cannot fail to injure a foe, under any circumstance, with their sword. No one. Without magic. But since fighters aren't magic, they shouldn't get this.
Warlocks? Sure! Give it to them! Just call it a magical ability and be honest about it. I'm not buying it, and I've worked on MMOs with flying dragons and respawning and zones and camping and so on. I can handle abstract fine. I can't handle utter nonsense BS garbage. And I won't pay for a company to insult my intelligence like this. Just admit it's magical, and remove it from the fighter.
I want the fighter class to be simple, straightforward, easy to play and easy to narrate. Some people don't, but that's their problem, D&D fighters have always, until 4th ed, been easy to understand how they do their schtick. This is a step back into the abyss of bad game design that will drive people away. Not only simulationists, but anyone who has the remotest respect for the english language or basic understanding of physics, or logic.
Burninator
First Post
Which is them just admitting that it's a game with zero pretense of plausibility. No event, done by imperfect beings, can always succeed at its goal. It's fine to handwave that you can never trip on a staircase or fall down, but people actually do that, in real life. And when you're on the spot, you will more likely fail.
The best boxers and fencers in the world do not land every blow. The best pro baseball player only hits on the order of a third of the time. They do not damage their foe every time, or hit the ball each time they make an attempt. If 13th age allows that, good for them, just pretend like everyone's Zeus or Thor or Achilles or whatever.
D&D PCs are not immortal demi-gods that always treat attack rolls as natural 20s. They're imperfect, and fallible. Making it impossible for them to fail at difficult tasks (trying to damage a foe that doesn't want to be), is the same thing as saying they are gods.
Damage on a miss is odd; also takes away the thrill of hitting, as a player!
I don't know; I'm sure these auto damage mechanics work just fine with 13th Age, but while it may be a game very similar to D&D, and specifically 4e, it's not D&D, and I don't think it's mechanics work for where 5e design idealogy is moving
wedgeski
Adventurer
You are one entertaining dude, I'll give you that.
TwoSix
Everyone's literal second-favorite poster
I'm pretty sure there's a reason his username is Burninator, not Calminator or Tranquilinator.
Healing Surges are an aweful mechanic as well because you could be down to 3 hp and bloodied and be able to somehow get up, keep fighting and remain healed. You also had powers that described actually taking pure hits to the body and were still able to be healed using a Healing Surge. Healing Surges should have been temporary hp but they weren't. Damage on a miss and Healing Surges are two horrible mechanics that provide no in game consistency.
Halivar
First Post
In any edition of D&D, you can have 1 hit point left with no other deleterious effect. Hit points left cannot be where the immersion breaks, or there can be no immersion in any edition of D&D.
We are talking the same edition that gave us 1 to full heal in a non magical way with in 24 hours.
Look, people can BS all day long but the this mechanic was never meant to make sense. It was a resource mechanic and nothing else. People try and come up with all sorts of laughable reasons as to why it makes sense but it really never does.
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