How important is it that a dungeon makes sense?

[Mercurius]

It probably matters more to most DMs than it does to most players. Some players might make a comment, but they generally don't care, at least in my experience.

In that sense, as a DM who takes campaign and adventure design seriously - and enjoys it as a creative process in and of itself (that is, not only for how fun it will play, but aesthetically) - I want there to be some rationale, some kind of internal consistency.

I don't mind your typical old school dungeon with a wide variety of creatures in adjoining rooms. But I need to come up with a reason that makes sense to me as to why that is; this not only serves to give me a sense of artistic integrity, but an explanation for the players if they should so ask or question. Think of the simple genius of Undermountain - it was the creation of a mad--and very powerful--wizard. That's all you need, really. Now of course you can only use that once, or you can stretch it a bit, as I do, and say that there was a lost civilization ruled by powerful mages that left behind many such dungeons, and are also the reason for the existence of many of the monsters in existence - the mages opened gates to other realms, created hybrid species, etc.

The more depth a DM puts into the story behind the action, the more the action can come alive. This is why Lord of the Rings was so powerful - the thousands of hours that Tolkien put into world building made Middle-earth an alive, a real, place. The best campaign settings are like this - they provide fertile soil, a context, for the adventures - and the dungeons. Without that, well, you can still have fun, but the campaign won't have the same feeling of depth and richness that it would otherwise have.

@delericho , just a point of clarification: Orcs don't use latrines. They go wherever they are when they feel the urge. I just thought you might want to know that.

 

[delericho]

@delericho , just a point of clarification: Orcs don't use latrines. They go wherever they are when they feel the urge. I just thought you might want to know that.

Maybe not in your campaign. In mine, we have slightly higher standards to maintain.

/snob.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

The words "dungeon" and "make sense" in one sentence is already stretching it a bit.

As soon as you enter a dungeon, you'd better leave your common sense at the entrance; our cloakroom attendent will give it back to you when you leave.

Apart from scientific problems (ventilation, soundness,...), weird eco systems, and the senselessness of building it in the first place, we have numerous other cruxes:

Why did the builder invest in complicated traps to secure, e.g., just one room or corridor?

Why are most of the inhabitants not doing anyhting remotely usefull, not even maintaining a modicum of guard duty?

Why does the BBEG insist on staying in the last room with no alternative way out?

In order to have a dungeon in my game, I just accept the whole concept as dumb and don't try to instill anything like sense in it. So no, I don't need a dungeon to make sense.

 

[Grydan]

Things making sense is really the main criterion for evaluating a DM.

I'd say that my main criterion for evaluating a DM is whether or not I have fun when they run the game.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'd say that my main criterion for evaluating a DM is whether or not I have fun when they run the game.

Okayyy, that's kind of a rhetorical statement. Mine is more explicit and descriptive but goes to the same point (unless you're trying to argue that the game doesn't need to make sense to be fun).

 

[MJS]

There are some interesting blogs out there about The Dungeon as mythic Underworld, the concept of which I love. The doors that resist intruders with a semi-consciousness. There is powerful subconscious material there...

As most people are saying - it's case by case. IMC, I have standard dungeons, but also a vast, mythic underworld that connects to other planes of existence.

The wilderness can be similar. "the Wilderness" as a mythic concept, vast, unexplored, strange, can be like a dungeon itself. I think one of the keys to either environment is a danger of getting lost - the need for mapping. Its amazing how mapping brings a group together.

 

[TwoSix]

As soon as you enter a dungeon, you'd better leave your common sense at the entrance; our cloakroom attendent will give it back to you when you leave.

Ideally, the cloakroom attendant is actually a cloaker.

 

[Razjah]

How important is it that a dungeon "makes sense", and what does that mean to you?

If it is important, would you still be able to enjoy a "nonsensical" dungeon if its nonsensical because it exists in a dream or in an afterlife limbo of some sort?

Are we talking as a GM or player? As a GM I need that explanation so that I can riff on the content when my players deviate from an adventure (I don't like published adventures because of this). The "making sense" also has context, bathrooms/latrines/etc- I could do without. But I want there to be an in-universe explanation for a dungeon having strange things, I don't need 100% details. But "The lowest level of the dungeon is covered in magical darkness so deep that torches only illuminate 5 feet," would be fine with the reason left up to the GM as long as it is stated it is up to the GM.

The "nonsensical" dungeon needs to be within reason. I don't care for a dungeon moving from lava pits to ice shelves 40 meters away. But in a dream world, a lot can be forgiven. In another plane, the changes should make sense with the plane (plane of shadow would have different nonsensical issues from a plane of mirrors).

 

[delericho]

Why are most of the inhabitants not doing anyhting remotely usefull, not even maintaining a modicum of guard duty?

Why does the BBEG insist on staying in the last room with no alternative way out?

Actually, these are the very things that I would expect a published adventure to be addressing. In general, the inhabitants of the dungeon (especially intelligent inhabitants) should not be just standing around waiting for the PCs to arrive. That last room probably should not only have one exit, and the BBEG almost certainly should not respond to an incursion by the PCs by meekly waiting for the arrival of his executioners.

But there's nothing inherent to the dungeon structure that means those things have to appear. Nor, for that matter, any guarantee that moving the adventure out of the dungeon would make them any better.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

But there's nothing inherent to the dungeon structure that means those things have to appear. Nor, for that matter, any guarantee that moving the adventure out of the dungeon would make them any better.

You're absolutely correct. Still "dungeon" for me means more than any underground location, it's the dungeon as adventuring environment. And while dungeons should be more believable, I don't know many that are.